Marty,
This started off as a simple “thank you” for the three days we
spent together. I delayed sending it as things in my world
continue to disentangle and evolve, and in reading your blog,
thought something of more detail may be of interest.
For context, as you know, I fully submersed myself in the
Scientology world, with the help of my family, as a young teen. I
was in the Sea Org, including Int Management, for something less
than 15 years. I have been out, covertly, for another 10, having
tried everything to dig myself out of the hole you so aptly
describe on the cover of your blog. While I had made some
progress, including achieving acceptable financial success and
repair of broken familial relationships, I remained unhappy,
unsatisfied, unable to gain sufficient traction in my life to
achieve what I believe my potential should be.
Like many who came into Scientology at a young age, I arrogantly
believed myself an expert on life, self improvement, the world …
everything that the Church’s culture said I should be an expert on
with Hubbard’s writings, I was. There were enough truths in
Hubbard’s material that this idea cemented in place and became a
debilitating belief blocking my ability to learn and observe in an
unbiased fashion for decades. I never knew Hubbard, nor had I even
met him. I was a product of the culture of his then DMs church
following his death, and there was a massive change in organized
Scientology after Hubbard’s death, not for the better.. I blindly
believed myself an expert, even though I had never studied anything
else, or lived the life “real” people face each day.
My journey to recovery included everything from other self
improvement groups such as Anthony Robbins, hypnosis,
psychotherapy, anti depressants, study of philosophy and
psychology, meditation, eastern spirituality, and all the rest.
While some of these had little real impact, others helped
significantly, especially reading real history.
Interestingly, my greatest advances came from the realization that
psychology and other mental and health professionals were not the
evil the church programs us to believe. Also that great similarity
exists between some parts of Scientology and psychology, and many
of the other great self improvement books and practices, INCLUDING
THOSE THAT PRE-DATE ALL HUBBARD BOOKS! There are many good
professionals working with people to improve their lives, employing
dignity and respect greater than I experienced from Scientology in
the final years of my involvement.
More recently I have been working with a counselor, making slow
progress, trying to get myself free from constraints I have
mentally imposed upon myself from, I believe, my Church upbringing
and exposure as a young adult.
The idea of getting your help was as terrifying as it was exciting.
I had not been on an e-meter for over a decade. The last years of
“auditing” were nothing but brutal and debilitating sec checking
leaving me feeling afraid to act in life for fear of doing bad
things. They left me in doubt of my own ability, independence,
sanity and integrity.
And, to make things even more interesting, you were one of the last
several auditors/sec checkers I had in the church. As you know,
our prior encounter was less than pleasant.
Side bar: The obvious question is why on earth would I do a session
with you after having been sec checked or emotionally “beat up” by
you on an e-meter a decade ago? The answer is simply, despite your
intensity, you did have kindness and compassion. When you realized
your “orders” regarding me and “briefing” of my character and
intention were not accurate or fair, you tried to make it right,
trying to help me leave in a stronger fashion, you tried to restore
some of my personal dignity. Yours was one of the few acts of
compassion I experienced from the church at that time, and the ONLY
from a senior management level.
When you and I started talking a few months ago, you did not
remember what happened until I started giving details. As you
remembered, I saw real pain in your eyes, felt it in your voice. I
know our conversations were no easier for you than for myself,
perhaps much more difficult. While words of apology are a good
start, my experiences leave me suspect of easy apologies, your body
language, your tone, your penetrating questions to uncover if there
was anything else you had done to me that hurt me, everything
together left me certain you were genuine.
Something very important to me, which I had not discussed with you,
was I wanted to hear your opinion about Hubbard and all the
different bodies of tech. That you effectively communicated
agreement and belief in certain aspects and dislike or distrust for
others, and could explain why and how, including the history and
evolution of technical and administrative aspects, together with
your other beliefs and studies … these were essential for me to
trust you as a free thinker and not a “RONbot” or “COBbot”. I
personally believe the blind reverence for the church as an entity,
DM, and small portions of the tech without being able to cross
reference and put things into context, the absence of critical
thought … these together are much of the cancer in Scientology.
Our prior visit, as you recall, had me refusing to even touch the e-
meter cans. Recently, when I picked them up, at first, they felt
electric … it was almost physically painful to pick them up. You
smiled, re-assured me, made me feel safe, offered to burn the work
sheets with me after the session … I knew you were genuine in
wanting to help me personally, including help repair any damage you
left in my world, and do this with the most effective means you
felt possible.
I forgot what auditing was like … having someone sitting with you
that genuinely wants you to improve and overcome personal
challenges. The last hundreds of hours of “auditing” I had were
brutal sec checks, FPRD, Roll Back, Evil Purp Handlings, and all
the rest. I forgot how light and easy it was, how safe and calm it
could be.
I was also startled to realize how similar it was to “Cognitive
Behavioral Therapy”, something my psychotherapist educated and
worked with me on.
Understanding and having spent many hours working on “Cognitive
Behavioral Therapy”
I understood the power and value of the e-meter, not as an
interrogation, intimidation, threatening device or lie detector,
but as a tool for a competent counselor in addition to observation
of my body language for finding areas of real emotional or mental
distress.
One of the issues I encountered with my other counseling sessions
was that I would bog down, dozens of thoughts would be floating
around my head randomly, it was slow and painful to dig through
them, identifying the real from imagined issues in my mind. I had
the same phenomena occur with you in our session, however with you
and your use of the meter, you were able to help guide me in to
identify issues I have been trying to discover for some 9 months, in
just a few hours.
That you were not interested in the number of hours, but rather
supportive of leaving me exploring my realizations, only going back
when I asked, was very satisfying.
I was also satisfied with observing your “model”. Your audit, exam
and CS as distinctly separate actions. Your session was, in
“scientology lingo” as standard as the best I encountered at Flag,
and much more productive because fear and threat were not present.
My personal revelations were in the area of incredibly deep
thoughts and feelings questioning my own core goodness and decency,
whether or not I was a good human being. The knotted ball of
string in my mind is starting to unwind, I don’t know the
consequences, don’t want to jinx them by talking about them openly
until everything has settled, but since leaving your home, have
concluded that I put these thoughts in place as part of the
intentional or unintentional actions of DMs Church putting me and
others in impossible situations that, I am beginning to believe,
were intentionally constructed to break free spirited and thinking
people.
What I will also share on this is that I was diagnosed with Chronic
Fatigue, needing about 12 hours sleep to feel somewhat rested and
alert. I woke up this morning, without an alarm, after 6 hours,
alert and rested. I am starting to get more effective, more able
to focus on specific tasks and execute them, though still have a
way to go.
What our auditing covered was serfacs, described in another of your
posts.
While I will never again become the blind drone DMs Church forced
me to become, I recognize and appreciate that there is value and
workability to the technology, opening or rather re-opening my eyes
to tools of value and use to myself and others in building better
lives.
Finally, on you. I was the third person walking along the beach
with you when you received the now almost infamous and internet
published call from “anonymous”. I watched your reactions during
and after the call. I then listened to the call in full through
the link.
While on the surface, the caller was much more calm and polite than
I had thought, there were certain undertones and statements made by
anonymous, perhaps and probably unintentionally, that could not but
create a negative reaction, despite the tone, and perhaps
compounded by the tone.
Frankly, I would get increasingly worked up, replaying this call in
my mind, were it I that received it. Such response is only human.
The tone of this call is exactly what DMs church would do … a
message other listeners would not consider ominous, but the
recipient couldn’t consider any other way.
I believe the caller had no malice aforethought, especially
hearing him apparently preparing food in the kitchen during the
call, clanking things around, but the caller did not appropriately,
IMHO, consider the effect of the nature and structure of his call
with the context it had to be received.
Marty, you have been a passionate and driven person since I have
known you. Perhaps now, even more so because you see the truth,
see and feel the harm and pain created by abuses done in the name
of Scientology, and feel a responsibility to try and make things right.
I respect this more than you know, love you for the personal risk you
are taking in trying to make things right. You have friends, an ever
increasing circle of friends who “got your back”.
To those who care, anonymous or Scientology, I absolutely am
certain that Marty has no intention of, nor ever will return to the
Sea Org or take over Scientology, he loves his life, his wife, his
dog and fishing too much. He wants to march to the beat of his
own drum, his own integrity, and be able to, in whatever way he
can, make the world a better place, fight injustices where appropriate.
Marty Rathbun is a good person, warts and all. He is my friend.
I also like and appreciate some of the work of Hubbard, with his
personal issues and all.
None of us are perfect, it seems especially that those who explore
or try tend to make more messes than those who did nothing. We can
only judge people by actions.
I believe Marty’s are good, especially now.
I believe DM’s are bad, especially now.
I believe Hubbard’s were good, especially in the earlier years,
though perhaps more questionable in the later years, whether from
personal issues, or from deceptive manipulation and manipulative
information fed him by DM.
Your Friend
Martyrathbun09's Blog 
IT IS NOT MY PURPOSE TO OFFEND.
I just cannot see any other way to ask this question.
How does one accept the teaching of Scientology when you read LRH’s words…
“The body is normally sweet-smelling down to 2.0 but begins to exude chronically certain unpleasant effluvia from 2.0 down. Individuals from 2.0 down commonly have bad breath. Their feet may have a considerable odour. The musk glands are very active. The sweat has a peculiar smell. Sexual organs emit a repelling odour. And various body exhaust functions are not under very good control. The person may have to urinate or defecate under slight stresses or may weep easily for no apparent cause. This column has not been added to this chart because it has not been thoroughly explored but is only known in a general way. Any slightly or greatly repulsive physical odour from an individual does, however, indicate a tone scale position below 2.0. It is amusing to note that in the Orient wives are commonly selected by the sweetness of their perspiration. This is a very reliable test for position on the tone scale. People who have bad breath as they are processed lose it when the are above 2.0 on the tone scale. People who are temporarily suppressed below 2.0 commonly have bad breath.”
For someone who was one of America’s first nuclear physicists, this is decidedly unscientific and illogical.
How do you as an individual reconcile silly statements like this and still accept his arguments on “faith”.
IT IS NOT MY PURPOSE TO OFFEND.
Ok, read that part? Now consider this!
“The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line — a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred — or simply quarantining them from the society.”
Combined with the above, is Hubbard advocating “deletion” of all people who have bad body odor?
Playing sports? Deletion. Sexual Intercourse? Deletion. Athletes Foot? Deletion.
Explain to me how these statements are logical when compared together. If I’ve unfairly compared them, tell me how they are individually logical.
How can you accept LRH’s words on trust alone?
THIS WILL OFFEND PEOPLE.
It’s my contention here that you all simply are unable to accept the fact that you were conned.
So, to prevent yourselves from facing that fact, you assign DM as a scapegoat and hold onto faith that Marty is the “true Scientology”, not the one that let you down.
Apply your logic to your faith. Read the books without the rose coloured glasses.
Do it for yourself. THINK.
Logical Mind. IT IS NOT MY PURPOSE TO OFFEND – but taking individual statements out of books and insisting people “explain to me how these statements are logical when compared together” is severely hurting your credibility with people who have done extensive study, and applied it with themselves with a critical mind. This is degenerating into a discussion that belongs more on Sean Vanity or Bill O’reilly.
Logical Mind, your comment on this thread is 100% non-sequitar having absolutely nothing do do with the post.
If your only desire is to conduct PR operations against Hubbard and Scientology, there are literally a dozen venues for that.
If your mind is so logical, why can’t you respond to the actual post with something relevant?
Michael A. Hobson
I am *not* anonymous. I *do* forgive.
LM,
I posed to you on another topic on this blog, that rather than this subject being a purely abstract, intellectual pursuit, that you actually test the subject yourself.
That means both as the one administering a procedure and as one receiving it. These must be done, as you know as a scientist, according to the exact protocols of the procedures in order to get an accurate assessment. Without the exact protocols you aren’t going to reproduce the actions and can’t expect to have it considered by peers that you have ‘done it’.
What say you to actually doing it, not just bandying about whether this makes sense or that is silly.
Sincerely,
Jim Logan
Umm, perhaps you should re-read the post…
> Something very important to me, which I had not discussed with you, was I wanted to hear your opinion about Hubbard and all the different bodies of tech. That you effectively communicated agreement and belief in certain aspects and dislike or distrust for others, and could explain why and how, including the history and evolution of technical and administrative aspects, together with
your other beliefs and studies … these were essential for me to trust you as a free thinker and not a “RONbot” or “COBbot”.
The whole point here is that the writer is jumping from one source of “authority” to another. It’s not what HE thinks about what LRH wrote, it’s what MARTY thinks about what LRH wrote.
My whole post is to virtually slap the person. To sit there and say “You accepted LRH writings. I present to you something that cannot be logically rationalized. What else have you accepted that you did not evaluate logically.”
My whole purpose here is to make sure people intelligently look at their faith and accept it or rejected based on their own standards of evidence.
Because then and only then do the people start talking about why they believe or do not believe. The arguments shift from “The standard tech works 100%” to “I feel this works because of X,Y or Z.”
When those statements shift, the individual can make an informed decision on the validity of the evidence according to THEM.
Suddenly, people aren’t lying for Scientology “It improves your eyesight.” They’re giving their honest and INFORMED opinion.
If you want Scientology to survive, that’s the only real way. Otherwise you come off as being very, very cultish.
Logical Mind misses a key point in understanding the real danger of Scientology. The fact is this: if nothing in Scientology worked, then none of us would have spent five minutes with it, let alone 15 or 20 or 30 years. Scientology would have faded out in the 1950s or 1960s. It didn’t, because certain parts of Scientology do work, particularly at the lowest and simplest levels. And that’s how intelligent people are trapped. Not because they are fools or idiots or brainwashed dupes, but because they thought they had found something that worked and wanted to help people and make a change in the world. It is precisely because the lower stuff has some workability that people buy into the whole system – including the “upper levels” and the “infallibility” of Hubbard.
Every ex-Scientologist, once they leave the Church, goes through a process of sorting out the good from the bad, the workable from the bogus. And everyone comes up with their own answers and their own solutions. Some reject the entire subject. Others keep parts of it and reject others.
Logical Mind is upset that anyone can find anything workable about any part of Scientology or have any benefit. They must be stupid or foolish or brainwashed.
Listen, if someone, like Marty, wants to apply what they found workable in Scientology with a good heart and good intentions, and if they benefit someone, so what? Really, so what? Why is that a threat to anyone?
Thanks for posting this Marty.
Logical Mind has actually provided a great illustration, perhaps unwittingly. His last several posts demonstrate PRECISELY how DM (and increasingly his followers) approach Scientology. Fishdaddy and others can attest Miscavige spends the better part of his day finding a line out of a book, policy, HCOB, or tape and fries people ruthlessly for not having followed it. Regardless of how destructive and inapplicable it might be to the accomplishment of the honorable purpose the staff member is trying to achieve, DM will take one line and hang the guy with it. He reads and applies Scientology just as Logical Thinker has here. Thanks.
Rebel008 Wrote:
Logical Mind misses a key point in understanding the real danger of Scientology. The fact is this: if nothing in Scientology worked, then none of us would have spent five minutes with it, let alone 15 or 20 or 30 years. Scientology would have faded out in the 1950s or 1960s. It didn’t, because certain parts of Scientology do work, particularly at the lowest and simplest levels.
===============================
So, you say that Scientology would have failed if the basics didn’t work? I say that’s nonsense and I present to you the paper from 1953 where it shows Dianetics, about as basic as it gets I might add, does not deliver on it’s core claims. (The link is in the Malcom X thread, too lazy to get it. :D)
I also present to you the “Nigerian Prince” scam. Absolutely nothing works in that setup and it continues to go on until this day.
So, without some sort of facts to back up your statement, I say that it’s offhanded and baseless.
Do you have any evidence to support your claim?
===============================
Rebel008 Wrote:
Not because they are fools or idiots or brainwashed dupes, but because they thought they had found something that worked and wanted to help people and make a change in the world. It is precisely because the lower stuff has some workability that people buy into the whole system – including the “upper levels” and the “infallibility” of Hubbard.
===============================
Intelligent people understand the concept that “ideas stand on their own”. For example, it really doesn’t matter if Aristotle was an actual person, because the statements that were made on his behalf (or by him) stand or fall on their own merit.
What you are arguing is that intelligent people accept “concepts from authority” which is in direct conflict with the above. It could be that intelligent people were acting foolishly, but accepting anyone’s statements based on being “right before” is nonsense.
===============================
Rebel008 Wrote:
Every ex-Scientologist, once they leave the Church, goes through a process of sorting out the good from the bad, the workable from the bogus. And everyone comes up with their own answers and their own solutions. Some reject the entire subject. Others keep parts of it and reject others.
===============================
I agree entirely. However for a completely different reason. I contend that some reject only parts of Scientology because they are unable to deal with the fact that they were duped. Others reject it categorically, those being the people strong enough to face what has happened in their lives.
I know this for one reason. For those who reject parts of Scientology but accept others, what research did they do to find out what they believed was real? If you reject part of Scientology, you must accept that some of what you have been told is wrong. How do you know more ISN’T wrong. A reasonable, logical person would say “I have been shown that Scientology is wrong in some areas. I have to investigate to see what is actually real.”
===============================
Rebel008 Wrote:
Logical Mind is upset that anyone can find anything workable about any part of Scientology or have any benefit. They must be stupid or foolish or brainwashed.
===============================
No, I’m upset that people aren’t ethical enough to do the research and find out if what they believe is true or not before pushing it on others.
I’m upset that Scientologists sucker in people with their “Oxford Capability Test” knowing full well it’s a load of bunk.
I’m upset that they use hard sell tactics.
I’m upset that they discourage independant thought about the subject material.
I’m upset that KRs are written up for anyone who doubts the tech is 100%.
Most of all, I’m upset that things that are not proven are represented as fact to those who do not know better.
I would expect the most ethical people on the planet to understand the concept that you need to prove what it is you’re claiming.
Because if you don’t, you’re just another snake oil salesman.
===============================
Rebel008
Listen, if someone, like Marty, wants to apply what they found workable in Scientology with a good heart and good intentions, and if they benefit someone, so what? Really, so what? Why is that a threat to anyone?
===============================
Really, so if Marty believes that Scientology auditing can cure cancer 100% of the time, he’s well within his rights to maket he claim it does?
If Marty believes homosexuals are PTS, does that mean a mother has to disconnect from her son?
If Marty has found auditing to be the only source of curing suicidal thoughts, he should be allowed to claim that “Psychology cannot help you, don’t take drugs from them.”
If you don’t see why it’s a threat, I don’t know what to tell you.
Logical Mind. You now have misrepresented what I do and how I think in serial fashion. I’m not going to go through it again – it is all posted for you to read. As far as testing spiritual powers go, subjectively I think it is near impossible. To me astounding spiritual phenomena occurs at the highest levels of the tone scale and the know to mystery scale. Exclusively. The moment you enter into “effort” and particularly an effort to prove yourself right forget it you are too far down the tone scale and know to mystery scale. You want a show, go see Uri Geller.
Actually, if you read what I write sir.
IF Marty. Ie, examples. I was showing how good intentions can lead to bad results. Every time I have expressed an opinon about how or what someone thinks I have said “IN MY OPINON.”
I have a legitmate question for you. And I’d ask that you think about it before answering.
If you have no objective way to evaluate whether or not your spiritual phenomena is real, how do you know it’s not simply in your mind.
As for proving the spiritual phenomena, let’s talk about the spirit “leaving” the body and being able to observe events. Have you been able to do this? If so, you can easily prove that it was real or not.
Have someone set an item ontop of your bed’s pillow when you’re not in the room but not tell you what it is. It should be something foreign but easily recognizable. Then, perform the spiritual action, see if you are correct.
That’s only one, but it gets you thinking in the right direction. 🙂
If a tree falls in a forest where no one is present to hear, does it make a sound?
Just to lighten this up a bit. How about if a guy is in the forest and his woman isn’t and he says something. Is he still wrong?
I think it got lost in the ‘Logical Mind’ somewhere, but, the above letter is utterly amazing. Thank you both.
It’s funny, all these old questions that were “stumpers” are now falling by the way, explained by science.
Of course the tree makes a sound. Conservation of energy my good man.
The chicken nor the egg came first. It was a gradual transition between the population. Furthermore, evolution is still occuring, so a chicken now wasn’t want a chicken was 50 years ago. 🙂
Dianetics isn’t now what it was 50 years ago. Science has come a long way and the flaws are showing. As surely as science will kill God in all time science will also kill scientology
That is of course unless someone publishes a scientific paper establishing it’s claims, /chuckle, I’ll be holding my breath.
Again, NO SURPRISE! I’m beginning to think you may just be conning me with all this tease on surprises.
What gives?
Oh, a question, what’s ‘dark matter’?
LM,
The ‘koan’ of the tree isn’t an illustration of the conservation of energy. Aside from that, that isn’t the scientific illustration either except maybe for a neophyte to science. A compression-rarefaction wave is created with the tree falling. Yes, energy in that instance may be conserved but that isn’t the point. The point is ‘sound’ is not just a compression-rarefaction wave. Sound has as part of its phenomena perception by a being of that wave or it isn’t ‘sound’.
Are you familiar with Fletcher-Munson curves and the phenomena of sound?
As to the philosophical ‘koan’, a clue may be had in the phenomena of your existence and perception. The rest, well, that’s up to you. Maybe we’ll see a paper some day on it.
LM,
Three outstanding questions to you are on the table. Have you performed the requested experiment, personally? What is the system of logic you are using? What is ‘dark matter’?
It goes without saying at this point, I’m looking to be surprised. This better not be a bait and switch. No more rhetoric. A REAL surprise.
Never.
LM,
First issue, as a scientist, you’ve made an assumption that I’m not sure about. That is that ‘mind’ and ‘spiritual’ are similar orders of phenomena. I’m assuming as any hard nosed realist, you are considering ‘mind’ as ‘brain’ of course.
Following that, your experiment to validate spiritual phenomena is on the order of poltergeist i.e., have a spiritual entity interact with ‘reality’ so that you, assuming you are a material entity, can ‘experience’ contact and preferably have it recorded on a medium that qualifies as something you can feel comfortable with. That meets your criteria of reality.
This is way too out there as far as it goes. What you should do, to put your money where your mouth is so to speak, is take my suggestion, and get a copy of Self=Analysis and following its exact protocols, do it. Yourself on someone, and someone on you.
Anything else here, as far as I can see from a strictly scientific standpoint, is just so much jaw flapping.
Get the book, follow the protocols or you aren’t reproducing the exact clinical situation and then you can have an opinion of your own that has some sort of experiential validity, of your own.
Jim Logan
Logical Mind, all the “ifs” you listed as “threats” are the things Marty, and others, are fighting.
But the threats I list come directly from Scientologys “assertations without evidence”. Are you saying that Marty is fighting to prove aspects of Scientology?
If so, bravo Marty. You have my total support.
How can you fight a hypothetical situation?
I was simply showing how “good intentions” can be dangerous in counter to your claim. 🙂
LM,
Well now you’re on to something. Get Self-Analysis. Do it. Have it done. Precisely by the protocols. That will take you from the merely theoretical, the abstract, the purely intellectual, in to the realm of experiment.
Here’s William James on this subject:”“In the natural sciences and industrial arts it never occurs to any one to try and refute opinions by showing up their author’s neurotic constitution. Opinions here are invariably tested by logic and experiment, no matter what may be their author’s neurological type. It should be no otherwise with religious opinions.”
Jim Logan Wrote:
Well now you’re on to something. Get Self-Analysis. Do it. Have it done. Precisely by the protocols. That will take you from the merely theoretical, the abstract, the purely intellectual, in to the realm of experiment.
===============================
How do you know I haven’t? How do you know I wasn’t a Scientology member who left because I was conned into buying something I already had by way of the 2007 books. I was willed earlier versions of the books. Maybe that is.
You know what the difference between you and I is? I went to University and learned about logic. I went and learned about the scientific method. I went and learned about all the things LRH wants you to be ignorant of so you eat up his slop with a spoon.
Learn about the scientific method. Learn about logic. Then re-read what he wrote.
You’ll have one hell of a surprise.
Retort to LM,
I don’t know if you have actually done the request. You haven’t said you did in your response. Have you followed the protocols of the experiment? Have you personally tested the theories and logic by actual experiment personally?
Along the lines of your rhetorical question on scientific method and logic. How do you know I haven’t learned it and reread what he wrote and had one hell of a surprise? It may not be the same surprise you think I should have.
What system of logic are you applying?
Surprise me.
Dear Marty,
I have a few comments. I am a scientologist, and I am still on lines. I have no intention of leaving my Church.
When David Miscavige took ower the control in 1986 he had some very active coworkers. Ray Mithoff, Marc Yager, Mike Rinder and you. All young CMO staff. You all followed DM through decades, and you must have been knowledgeable about the way DM took ower the control. So, you are all responsible for this mess.
I arrived at this planet some thousand years ago, and went on with Scientology for many years in the hope, that I would be able to escape the planet when I die.
On my older days I have decided that it is a good planet after all. But it needs to be changed seriously. Especially because I plan to come back. So the future of this planet is definitely also my responsibility.
One thing I know is that it is possible to attain the stars, by doing the right thing. Constant alertnes and willingness to fight back.
I don’t consider Scientology technology as a perfect system. If it was we would not have this mess up for one thing. As an auditor I have never had trouble explaining the unperfectness of scientology to pc’s, c/s’es and cramming officers. They usually agree. Scientology is not perfect, but it is the best we have. Period.
I see a lot of outpoints in my religion, and have always done. There is nothing new in that. What is new is that the Pope is beating up his juniors. That is so disgusting. Not so much because he is beating them up, I can understand he looses his temper at times, we all do. But it is disgusting that he is covering his beatings and his crimes up, so the disconnection policy is misused in its fullest extent. You have to disconnect from people that actually tell the truth. That is disgusting. Especially when they get SP declared for telling the thruth, and then being barred from their families.
But if I was a Catholic, and knew that the Pope was raping young boys, I would probably not stop believing in the Mother Mary. I would just pray harder, I guess.
My point is, where is the alternative in all this?
You, Mike Rinder, Vicky Aznaran or Jesse Prince would probably never go back in the Sea Org, and take over if David Miscavige was taken off post. Somebody else would for sure, but would that be better? Hopefully yes. But we can only hope.
Mary Sue Hubbard had to go. You know how many fistfights that took, and you were part of that. Now the time has come for David Miscavige.
The problem is that these Sea Org members believe firm and strong that there is a way out for them as spirits, and for them it is by applying the technology with a harsh and firm hand. Everything is motivated towards the greatest good. And 98 % of staff in general enjoy being staff, they actually love it, elsewise they would leave. They are not dumb robots. I know a lot of them.
They also believe that they are in a war, and I agree with that. It is the war between theta-beings and MEST-beings as described in History of Man. To them, and also to me, the MEST beings are psychiatrists. Not only the ones that are educated with a title etc., but also those that firmly believe that man is an animal, and that he has no soul. Those people are the real danger, not David Miscavige. And I don’t see any Freezoners or ex-staffers doing any work in that direction. I might be wrong, but at least I haven’t heard about it.
I mean honestly that the crimes David Miscavige has done are terrible. They must be corrected, and the only way I can see that be done is by busting him, and putting somebody else in charge.
That would solve a great deal, and we could all continue doing what we all want, creating a better world. Wasn’t that what many of us got so exited about, in our younger and better days?
There is in my opinion one way that David Miscavige can be busted once and for all.
That is to find Ann and Pat Brooker, and let them tell their story.
You, Marthy Rathbun, knows for sure what happened, but your word will not be believed by many old timers, if you were to speak up.
But Pat and Ann Brooker’s words would be taken very serious by a lot of oldtimers.
My question is simple: Can somebody find Ann and Pat Brooker?
They were the ones that should “inherit” Scientology.
For now I am staying put in my Church. I’m feeling well there, despite everything.
Sincerely
The Old Timer.
PS: If you decide not to post this remark, then please reply anyway.
Thanks. You dream if you think anyone will listen to Pat. A captive audience in the SO wouldn’t even listen to him twenty years ago. Quite frankly, for good reason.
Old Timer,
Well you should stay put in your church. What you are seeing here is order being put in and some confusion blowing off. Take a look at the LRH issue, When You Need Reassurance. It’s in the Tech Vols.
No worries, O.T, this is all gonna work out just fine. Lots of action, rough and tumble and the only game, Scientology, where EVERYBODY WINS.
Jim
There has never been a post that made me glad I left Scientology more then this.
I may have ended up like this. So far gone that I actually accept that I lived past lives.
LM,
That response isn’t a surprise.
What’s the system of logic you’re recommending. Not just generic ‘logic’ I hope. Which method?
Now that’s what I call deluded. If you plan to find the Broekers, why not seek out David Mayo too? He was supposed to be the technical heir, and his Advanced Ability Centre in Santa Barbara really took off until it was infiltrated and destroyed.
Not that I think any of that is possible. All three, along with Jesse Prince, appear to have been permanently silenced.
Earlier on this thread, some people brought up the perennial mystery of whether LRH started out benign back in the early days and became viciously nutzoid later on. I can only conclude that he operated on both levels at once: Part of him believed he was a great philosopher, scientist and leader; another part of him knew he was a con artist from the get-go. He was certainly good at hypnosis and shifting the blame for his mistakes.
OT – Read my subsequent posts carefully. Then amend your post. If it indicates you have read, duplicated and understood all that I have written, I’ll take the time to respond to you.
But Marty,
If Ann and Pat Brookers words are not to be believed, then we must believe in you.
What happened in the takeower, and what happened to them?
OldTimer
Old Timer,
Annie married me after the takeover. DM forced us to get divorced. She is still following her purposes and working at the Int Base. I’m following similar purposes ‘out here’.
The takeover is documented on the Scientology-Cult website and various other spots on the interweb from those who witnessed it. In particular is an interesting post on the above site by the Gang of Five.
spectating
LM
I agree entirely. However for a completely different reason. I contend that some reject only parts of Scientology because they are unable to deal with the fact that they were duped. Others reject it categorically, those being the people strong enough to face what has happened in their lives.
TP
You miss out a very important category, those who have found scientology usefull, and reject some of it. They too can be strong enough to face their lives. Why do you exclude that as a possibility? Its not logical.
LM
I know this for one reason. For those who reject parts of Scientology but accept others, what research did they do to find out what they believed was real? If you reject part of Scientology, you must accept that some of what you have been told is wrong. How do you know more ISN’T wrong. A reasonable, logical person would say “I have been shown that Scientology is wrong in some areas. I have to investigate to see what is actually real.”
TP
A reasonable logical person might say ” I have found scientology correct in some areas. I have to investigate to see what is actually real.”
Those who accept some of scientology, but reject some of it may have done an enormous amont of research. Many years of recieving auditing, delivering it, working on staff, reading about the subject, including critical commentary, and living life and matching what they find with data in scn, and seeing how it stacks up.
You say one should investigate to find what is real, yet seem to not allow that some may find scn usefull. Thats not logical.
The process of investigation is useful. Anytime
I happen to read some green on white I evaluate it in a new unit of time, and see if its useful to me. One not widely known datum is that LRH says old antiquated policy MUST be thrown out.
For respect to us all I wait until the waters go calm to post this.
I´m Amazed how much twisted a blog can go when his administrator gives liberty to it.
This is a space that was created to share some viewpoints and wins of a person trying to get his life back and ends on a place devoted to catch everyone´s rambling dissertations on any given subject related to scientology.
It seems to be irresistible for some to write an endless list of demands and clarifications on the page of former General Inspector of the Religious Technology Center. I mean; If Litle Dickie (or Diminut Mouse as you want to call it) is never going to be in communication with the people to give the face; at least we all can spit on Marty´s face; Right?
So instead of rambling on and on endlessly on every dreamed subject ad nauseum I want to be the one who tells to the friend who share this improvement story this: CONGRATULATIONS MAN.
Congratulations for the things you achieved and I hope you finally end putting all your life in order.
I wish that with all my heart.
I know you have suffered and I remind you that a lot of us have walked the pain line and have endured to keep on walking. Wish you strong legs to carry on walking. Whatever you do; never stop; never give up; As the song says…”Don´t let go”.
Analyze your actions and find out that there was love and goodwill in a lot of them. Reality is not always, but constantly a deceptive one.
Use any tech to be better; but be so, because nobody deserves to be in a low position or a undesirable state. Use this chance and make a turn.
I´m not going to go into the opinion´s war that is going on here. Instead I want to urge to all the non fatigue followers of this site to take some time of your life and with any tech or knowledge go to a local community center, a jail or a orphanage and HELP somebody. Use the half of the time you use sitted in front of the computer to help somebody BY ANY MEANS.
This way I hope we all bypass all the yap-yap and speaking endlessly to justify not doing any good to others with our miserable egoist life.
Help others is a tremendously therapeutic thing. If someone needs scientific evidence of it I propose that he or she apply the scientific method to it, do it and see if it´s a true or false statement; but do it. I don’t care to be wrong if at least I achieve putting your a** in the helping-someone line.
Please; stop using any site to scream all the world that you´re not doing anything to correct things.
There are MANY wrongdoings right now in life.
Please start correcting some of them. If some of you hate so much scientology and/or Diminut Mouse (long way to say DM) I encourage you to tell me how are you making a better world. I happily would give you a big smile and you´ll be in my heart forever for helping making a better world for my daughters.
Sincerely.
MexicanAmigo.
Logical Mind, dude, have you ever smelled someone in the tone level of fear? I have. It is an unbelievable odor. This girl I worked with was one day under a lot of pressure and was in fear and man, she emitted an odor unlike any I have ever perceived. I don’t have the inclination to read all your “arguments” but your first one makes me think that the part of SOS that you are taking issue with is simply unreal to you. Go find someone in fear and let your nose educate you.
Dear Marty,
I have read your posts, and have duplicated them as well as possible.
What I am concerned about is organized religion. It’s bad, but it is a necessary evil. Especially taking in consideration that we are up against a multi trillion dollars religion in psychiatric malpractice. This religion is organized man. The psychiatric religion believes in man as a mest-object, and believes that man can be handled by chemicals. That is really bad news, and what you and others are attempting to do, is forwarding their purposes, rediculizing everything that has to do with the spirit. This is only my opinion though. I might be wrong.
I am not saying that it is wrong to critizise DM, that might be right, but I am afraid that the consequences of your acts, will make us all loose.
I give you this quote from the man himself.
LRH:
“Now, I don’t like to talk much about the whole track, but it is true that the only great societies of outer space are those which have continued under organized OTs . Now, they’re merely released OTs, which is quite remarkable, but they have tremendous duration, and that’s the only place where OTs survive — organized OTs.
“But you’d say these fellows are completely unorganizable because they have total differences of opinions and so forth. Yes, yes, yes, they have total differences of opinion, but they also recognize it’s better to be organized than to be disorganized. They also recognize the liabilities of organization.
“It’s very interesting on an OT organization to see the shift about of posts in the upper hierarchy of them. Those posts shift.
And they shift up and they shift down and back and forth and they shuffle around amongst themselves, this sort of thing. But they’re a great minority. They’re a minority group in charge of fantastic majorities.
“Now, if you took on, all by yourself, as a released OT – we don’t know anything about cleared OTs but as a released OT; we can merely guess — if you were to take on any part of this civilization, and I would say even the worst wogdom that had just been organized as a new democracy, I think you would eventually come a cropper because it’s the individual up against the organization. I don’t care how powerful the individual was.
“That’s interesting. That’s interesting as a fact and is the only thing, in actual fact, which excuses organization. It has endurance. It has survival. The average fates of the individuals in it are preferable to disorganized activities. There’s nothing more can be said for one.”
LRH
SHSBC
ORGANIZATION
A lecture given on 23 August 1966
It is possible to change the power.
I could not in my worst nightmares consider that it would be better to bring in Pat Broker again, but I would like to hear his story. That is all. And as that probably is impossible, I would like to hear your story instead. You were there, and you know it.
The fact is that Mary Sue Hubbard could be taken down internally, then it also could be possible to take down DM as well internally. We don’t have to bring in the SP Times and hopefully not the BBC, CNN, Fox and the lot. It only serves the psychs and the anti-religionaires all too well.
What you are doing might be the trigger to let a powerchange happen, but I personally doubt it. It has to be done internally by someone with a hell of a lot of power. I hope he or she excists.
Because if he or she does exist, then the structure of the organized religion Scientology will persist, and that for me, is essential.
Without the structure we are completely lost.
Sincerely the OldTimer.
Old Timer,
The problem is that for almost three decades Miscavige has thoroughly inculcated the idea in the current org structure from top to bottom that he trumps Source, while reversing both Scientology 1st dynamic and 3rd dynamic tech to drive people down the tone scale, toward MEST. You can site all the policy in the world to me; it doesn’t change those facts. Factually, the EP of OT VIII requires what Geir Issene has come to realize, time for Truth Revealed. As far as anyone changing it from within, not in your or my life time. Tommy Davis told the Times that Rinder was upset because he used to run in the tall grass with the big dogs and can’t anymore. Fact is, all the big dogs are gone, and Miscavige is reduced to pondering, “who let the dogs out?” We are all going to have to grow up and take some measure of responsibility for salvaging the subject. Do not forget the fundamental premise upon which the entire body of discoveries rest, FUNCTION MONITORS STRUCTURE.
Marty,
Thanks for the data. Could you tell us, if you can, what happened to Pat Broeker? I mean: is it true that he falsified the Flag Order that appointed him as Loyal Officer? Was he out ethics? What’s the story behind him leaving/getting kicked out?
I dont want to push you but I believe that if we want to get the “truth rundown” to its full EP, this “mistery” about what happened to Pat Broeker should be dissolved once and for all.
You say, correctly IMO, that sunshine is the best medication. The story of Pat Broeker somehow keeps many of us in a mistery that I believe should be solved. Per the data on Group Dianetics (1951) that is a “group engram” and should be handled by letting the true story be known to the group.
Dont worry that even if it comes out that Pat was out ethics and did something terrible, we are not going to let you down and think “so maybe DM was right…”. I support you in what you are doing regardless of wether Pat Broeker was good or bad.
And besides everything else, after having contributed millions of dollars to the church and spent many years supporting, I believe it is our right to know what it really happened in 1986-88. Miscavige didn’t view it that way. He tried to keep us ignorant and in the unknown. He probably believed “we couldn’t handle it”, he believed we were “poor little beings” unable to digest and manage those kind of informations.
Please Marty, if you can, can we take this a little bit further? After all it was also OUR church and I believe we are entitled to know.
It’s time this story gets audited out.
Thank you very much for your understanding.
Best Paolo
OLD TIMER
What you are doing might be the trigger to let a powerchange happen, but I personally doubt it. It has to be done internally by someone with a hell of a lot of power. I hope he or she excists.
Because if he or she does exist, then the structure of the organized religion Scientology will persist, and that for me, is essential.
Without the structure we are completely lost.
Sincerely the OldTimer.
TP
I disagree. Power change internally has not happened in over 2 decades. Thus external pressure is needed.
DM may be in court re Human Trafficking shortly. This may hopefully jail him, if not other methods may succeed.
Currently the philosophy and technology of Scientology is a total laughing stock, and thats stating it nicely, and its the “organisation” COS that makes it so, and primarily its “leader”.
Maybe you don’t get out on the net much, or anywhere much. You go anywhere scn is discussed and its a pariah. That is the currant “Structure”.
There is a quote from LRH loosely, ” when management are concentrating on buildings please go blow up central headquarters.”
You are a hypocrite.
“I know if anybody were operating in my area with a media-type of attitude towards Scientology, who sent out vast number of postcards to mailing lists and got all the people in so that he could make an ass out of himself about how awful Scientology really was, and how bad the organization really was, and how it was all wild and flighty anyhow, I would have had a good fight on my hands, and somebody would have lost, and I don’t think it would have been me. Personally, if I were an auditor and found my area being muddied up to that extent, I would have a definite feeling, if I permitted it to go on, that I was not doing all I could do to spread scientology in my area. I would have taken such a screwball out of the running so fast he would have thought he had been hit by a Mack truck and I don’t mean thoughtwise. But then the difference between me and an apathetic auditor is that I fight and I get things done.”
– LRH 27 May 1955 – Ownership Special PAB (Tech Vol III, pg 98)
Hypocrite? That is precisely what the NOI labeled Malcolm as part of its call for an assassination. Interesting the harassing phone calls started hitting my home the same evening you first posted. How about identifying yourself along with your call for Mack trucks to be brought on?
James you are the hypocrite.
First like many of the critics and like the self proclaimed “Chairman of the (now nonextistent) Board of RTC” (by the way where is Warren McShane these days?) you take a line out of an HCOB, PL, Book, in this case a PAB and quote it entirely out of context.
Here he is talking about the CADA. Obviously the Ol’man’s bark was louder than his bite because he still remained friends with the then president A. E. van Vogt.
My opinion but I think you and Miscavige seem to selectively seem to take lines out of various texts or lectures when Ron was upset or angry with someone or about something and operate off of these. Why is that?
I have been watching your blog and seeing the comments going back and forth for the last several weeks. I trained as an auditor and a sec checker. I am a class VI. You say you have audited tons of hours on tons of people. Yet the success above is the rants natter. What auditing do you give to get this? I was around when Mayo wiped out sec checking tech. Seems you are doing the same.
Hubbard said in RJ38 “Recent surveys have been done on public and one of the main things that they are interested in is ensuring that the squirrels get handled and off the lines. RTC is the organization that is effectively doing this. The response to RTC’s handling of the squirrels has been excellent. The public detests them.” I guess that includes you.
Lynnie. Thanks. I don’t know where the “around” is that you were allegedly at when RJ 38 was issued. But, at Int, this is what happened. Mayo was ordered to sec check DM when DM was forcibly taking over the only communication line to LRH – with the use of violence and severe natter and propaganda. The “surveys” LRH refers to were false reports from Miscavige intended to justify his having declared Mayo, two former CO CMO INTs – that he illegally and unethically took out to seize the comm line to LRH – and a number of mission holders whose combined first starts stats alone were several times what it has ever been combined in international Scientology since. The writer of the success on my blog is very well informed of what went down at Int and personally witnessed first hand a fair dose of DM’s suppressive acts. If you believe the writer of the success on my blog should not be helped in the way I attempted to, then that is your choice. If you believe that I should ignore events that I witnessed, turn my back on injustices and suppressive acts committed at the highest levels of Scientology, then you are suggesting I should become a mindless, ethics-less automaton. I contend that is precisely the opposite product of Scientology. If you are suggesting that anyone that is in any way affiliated with the Church of Scientology is more proficient than I at administering confessionals then you are directly nattering about your own Dear Leader.
“RTC has also been the major driving force behind handling squirrel groups internationally so that Scientologists are protected against those who deal in shoddy substitutes for their own personal gain.”
RTC is the major squirrel group on earth today. DM is the biggest squirrel of them all. He has turned a subject that is predicated upon ARC – created by a man who demonstrated many times over that the entire universe, and every scientific formula that describes it can be explained by ARC and ARC alone – into a tool to oppress and make unquestioning, ruthless automatons.
I totally agree Marty!
You actually don’t have to go too far to examine the prima facie evidence. The “Golden Age of Tech” stands as a perfect example of squirreling. This “tech” which Miscavige proudly proclaimed that he and RTC “developed” when introducing it has destroyed more auditors and wrecked more cases than all squirrel groups combined!
That is definitely one area that Davy’s stats are actually up!
That and the number of refund requests and a muddy ARCxn field!
Nowadays the only stats he can actually brag about are in real estate as he did in that 80 page foot bullet he sent to subscribers of the St. Petersburg Times.
Dear James/Lynne,
I quote the DAB Group Dianetics (Red Vol I)
“Processing of the group should be the special trust and charge of selected members of the group itself. The processing is done by the examination of emergency situations and the complete detail of them by this selection of the group. Such examination and publication and discussion of these moments of emergency should not be colored in any slightest degree by any thought of protecting the public idea concerning the ethics of this particular group. Information cannot be masked, either from individuals of the group or to other groups examining this group, save as that information may apply to the emergency status of the situation which may still be existing, as in the case of disposition of troops by a general during a time of combat.”
“The people selected by the group to be auditors to the group, discover the existence of engrams by the existence of arbitrary commands. They then proceed to discover the basic-basic on the chain of engrams and, after due examination not only of the arbitrary orders but of the entire status of the turmoil, publish for the discussion and information of all the members of the group everything which can be discovered about the situation with all evidence which can be collected”.
…
“This effort at processing will be utterly defeated should the auditor of the group pay any attention whatsoever to the consideration of the public or other groups may have for the group, to the reputation of any individual involved in the moment of emergency, or to any idea that members of the group itself may be grossly upset by the discovery of certain facts about its members”. – LRH
It’s time we all who have been involved do THE RIGHT THING: let the truth be known. Only the exact time, place, form and event will as-is this situation.
What happened to Broeker? How come Mary Sue was taken off the lines? Where the money of the C. of S. really go? How much are SCN Board Members being paid? How are the balance sheets like? Et Cetera
Lynne, James, O.T., I am not against you. Once upon a time Scientology was one of the strongest group on earth. Look at it right now… Attaccked right left and center, bad pr, people off lines, the tech being ridiculed… How could all this be possibile DESPITE all of our contribution?
IMO there are no more squirrels, no more RTC, no more IJC, no more freezone. There is just ALL OF US who have been involved in the scene and we all deserve to know what went wrong.
This will be a great as-is and a right indication for many and maybe there will again be hope and expansion for all of us.
Paolo
Paolo. Thank you for that. More lost (hidden) tech. On the DM’s take outs, have a look at the article by the “gang of five” at Scientology-cult.com. Those are credible sources and a lot of those facts I can attest to.
Very interesting. I have one question: is it usual that Scientologists do very little but think of themselves and explore their own narcissism?
I have never read any account of anyone so self-obsessed. I think it’s possible that Scientologists have an OC disorder about their own self importance. I’m serious.
Logical Mind,
Your total intention is to inflame this board.
You may as well be standing in the freeway, stark naked for the world to see. Your words tell the story of your intent.
You words only serve to distract decent people from the real issues. Your words do not cloak you at all and speak volumes about your real intention.
Shelly T.,
How about a couple of specifics?
Who many Scientologists have you personally known or spoken to directly and what are their names?
To those that are here with the purpose to inflame and distract only: You know who you are.
I just wanted to say that your desperation is beginning to show.