C of S Response to Paul Haggis letter

David Miscavige and his mouthpiece Tommy Davis have made yet another huge mistake. They have chosen to tell the Associated Press that Paul Haggis is wrong about the facts he cites in his now well-publicized letter:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091026/ap_en_ot/us_people_paul_haggis.

I am in a position to know that Miscavige and Davis will once again be proven to be lying like Southern Flounders.  It is one thing to call me or other former staff liars.  It is quite another to call Paul Haggis such. They’ve been able to get away with the former many a time. I predict they will be made to eat their words with the latter.

the letter: http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/paul-haggis/

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74 responses to “C of S Response to Paul Haggis letter

  1. Yet another foot bullet. For 10 months he could not respond to Paul and now it’s all a misunderstanding? Why he keeps denying disconnection is beyond me.

    • They’re handling is very similar to CIA it consists of plausibly deny, deny, deny. Trade Craft 101.

      Now you notice step 2) which is called the “Limited Hangout”. This is where Tommy “admits” that disconnection does indeed exist but really it’s “self determined”.

      Yeah whatever.

      “Self determined” my _____!

      Unless you call the person’s response after various threats, extortion, black mail and bribery as any thing approaching “self determinism”,

  2. Fascinating. Southern flounders lie? Who knew?

  3. DM and Davis obviously can’t think of another blessed thing to do besides deny deny deny. The right thing to do would be to resign when caught red-handed, but that will never cross Miscavige’s mind. Instead, honest Scientologists like Paul Haggis will have to be the ones to turn their backs on Miscavige and his minions.

  4. I’m glad he’s broken free (and so honorably with this letter) and I’m sure that after a while out from under their influence, he’ll look back upon his membership as very obviously foolish.

    In the meantime, I hope he knows that he is vulnerable to their various methods of retribution. Among those is his file of “confessions”, which (by church contract) is only private so long as he is a church member. Hopefully there’s not too much in there.

    But they have tendrils that are known to reach into many sectors, and he is now what they call, “free game” (look it up). He may find himself, or his business interests, suddenly audited, or for business ventures (films, for example) to be strangely beset with legal scrutiny and unconventional challenges. These are only some of the tools that have been used (and well documented) against ex-scientologists. What other methods have never been found out?

    I respect his history of “defending the under-dog”. I too have often found myself “defending” the more bizarre doctrines of the CoS (since I find their weirder notions to be only slightly stranger than the stories of even mainstream religions). But the reality of the way that the church functions in society, and their twisted views of morality, and their insidious, duplicitous manner of evangelizing, are beyond reprehensible.

    I wish him luck. It may prove to be more difficult than he expected. The letter is a testament to his character.

  5. Gawd those two belong together. Like people don’t see through this crap. It just keeps rolling down the big old hill. Tommy you are not for rights of any kind and you promote disconnection and to say you don’t is a lie. Tell that fact about disconnection to all those who are disconnected from family members still today. The truth is you have nowhere to hide.

  6. Marty: “It is one thing to call me or other former staff liars. It is quite another to call Paul Haggis such.”

    Where in the article do they called Paul Haggis a liar?

  7. It is interesting to me that Tommy Davis says that the COS doesn’t “force” people to disconnect.

    This is like Bill Clinton saying he did not have sex with “that woman” because oral sex “isn’t sex”.

    I think Tommy must get the concept that we are saying the COS does make you disconnect from people who they say are “SPs” if you want to remain a member or you will become an “SP” too!

    The COS does not let a person get in communication with the person who has been labelled SP to hear their side of the story to see if they in fact agree with this label for that person.

    Instead of really clarifying their position on disconnection to see if people really agree with it they get into half truths and obfuscation.

    If they feel good about the policy why try to hide the true nature of the policy?

    I guess you have to ask them the EXACT specific question, like sec checking a criminal.

    Alex

  8. Amazing that the PR scramble “it was all a misunderstanding” was only about the gay rights portion.
    I guess the massive impact of ARC breaking a family is not important to DM and Tommy.
    Covering their own considerations on the greatest good I assume. Inability to evaluate importances is a mark of aberation on the subject of help. Not very unexpeected really.
    I guess they don’t realise how deep and cutting ARC breaking a family is. Or how lying about it causes a complete write-off of the people involved as below contempt.

  9. I found this in an article at:
    http://www.abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/paul-haggis-resigns-scientology-scathing-letter-tommy-davis/Story?id=8917275&page=2

    “Davis also denied Haggis’ allegation that the church ordered Rennard to ‘disconnect from her parents.’

    “‘That’s not true. The church doesn’t do that,’ he said. ‘The church doesn’t tell people who they should and shouldn’t be connected with. It’s the fundamental human right for someone to decide who they are and are not going to be in communication with.’

    “Haggis’ publicist said the director does not plan to comment further on the matter.”

    ————-

    It’s amazing that Davis continues to deny it. Someone needs to send the “SUPPRESSIVE ACTS” list to ABC News or the AP, where it says it’s a suppressive act to “adhere to a group or individual pronounced suppressive by HCO” (e.g. Haggis’ parents-in-law).

  10. AXIOM 18.
    THE STATIC, IN PRACTICING NOT-IS-NESS, BRINGS ABOUT THE PERSISTENCE OF UNWANTED EXISTENCES, AND SO BRINGS ABOUT UNREALITY, WHICH INCLUDES FORGETFULNESS, UNCONSCIOUSNESS, AND OTHER UNDESIRABLE STATES.

    NOT-IS-NESS is the effort to handle IS-NESS by reducing its condition through the use of force. It is an apparency and cannot entirely vanquish an ISNESS.

    Note to DM: You are doing it wrong.

  11. I would love to be a fly on the wall of DM’s office while he and Davis are in the throws of a full blown panic attack over this PR disaster!

  12. Self-determined?

    When people have invested large parts of their lives, income, time, and have friends and family on the inside, they are forced to disconnect from other friends or family who disagree with the CoS.

    Sure, it is self-determined, but it’s a choice between hell and the devil, and the CoS does everything they can to make sure you chose their side, enforcing it with threats and intimidation. And Scientology techniques are abused for control/brainwashing, sec checks etc…

    Are most people even told that this policy exists when they join and that they might be forced to adhere to it some day? Or would they call that “outgradient”, as in, we wouldn’t be able to rip people off as well if we told them that?

    They need to learn that with the internet, it is no longer possible to hide information like this. You need to confront it, or it will only make you look like an even greater fool. Of course I can’t blame you, even inside the Scientology belief system it becomes very hard to defend some disconnections as being ethical.

    Tommy Davis, you’re definitely on a fool’s quest, and for the good of all I hope you stay right there and keep it up. No one who wishes to see the CoS’ evil totalitarian practices eradicated could have a greater ally. Though for your own sake, I’d recommend getting out and joining the insanity out here instead of the one in there.

  13. Tommy, Knock it off! You already made a fool out of yourself in the media and the world.

    The are many of us Scientologists who have experience “disconnection”, abuses and violation of Human Rights within the CoS. We are speaking out. You are no longer trusted by the media.

    Do you know why DM is not appearing in public or doing an interview with media? Because he is scared of us. He is hiding himself behind you. He is making you look stupid in public so he can blame you for all the mishandling as the PR person and finally send you to the RPF.
    That is a typical characteristic of an SP (DM).

    Are you going to continue being PTS to DM (SP) or apply LRH to the situation and FREE yourself?
    We will embrace you when you get out.

  14. Now for the lighter side of things 🙂

    http://www.avclub.com/articles/aint-no-walkout-like-a-scientology-walkout,34590/

    I love the closing paragraph:

    But maybe that was Tommy Davis’ point? To show the world how angry, thin-skinned, and insane Scientology’s highest officials can get when they don’t get their way? Seems like a strange PR strategy given that the entire point of the Nightline piece was to investigate claims that Scientology’s highest officials are angry, crazy, sometimes abusive people. But maybe this is all part of their prosteltyzing strategy: If you love short-tempers, saunas, and leaving in an angry huff, maybe Scientology is for you!

  15. For those who didn’t see Tommy Davis deny the existence of disconnection, here’s the original CNN interview: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/05/08/sot.davis.interview.cnn

    “JR: On that point, help us to understand something about the church, and it is something this group Anonymous is protesting. They claim that the church separates family members. There is this practice of disconnection where, if you are a member of the church of scientology – to the best of my understanding here on this issue, because I am not able to fully understand it- but, if you are a member of the church of scientology, and someone in your family or a friend or your spouse, is skeptical or critical of the church of scientology, you were supposed to disconnect yourself from that person. Jenna Miscavige Hill, who is a nurse… a niece rather of the church’s leader, David Miscavige, said that happened to her, which is the reason she left the church a couple of years ago. She has now a website, bringing together former members of the church of scientology to talk about issues like this. [03:00]

    TD: Well… First of all, this is a perfect example of how the Internet turns things, twists things. There is no such thing as disconnection as you are characterizing it, and certainly… you have to understand… scientology is a new religion. The vast majority of scientologists in the world, they are first generation. So, their family members are not going to be scientologists… This kind of things… Scientology really mandates, and it is really part of the code of being a scientologist, to respect the religious beliefs of others. So, certainly, somebody who is a scientologist is going to respect their family members’ beliefs, and we consider family to be a building block of any society [04:00]. So, anything that characterizes disconnection and this kind of things, it is just not true. There is not any such thing in the church that is dictating who people should or should not be in communication with. You know… It just does not happen.

    The full transcript is here: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/42-english/transcript-cnn-08-04-2008-tommy-davis-15268/

  16. Scientology-Cult.com Update: Monday at 2 PM thousands of visitors overloaded the server at our hosting company. 10 hrs later we are back, on a new server “grid” that no traffic volume can overwhelm. All this was due to traffic wanting to read Paul Haggis’ most honorable letter. With every post, every comment, every voice, every whistle blown, and every declaration of independence, we are inexorably chipping away at something like a dam that is holding back the sea… meanwhile at the bottom of the dam in the canyon, two village idiots won’t stop playing with matches, playing with matches, playing with matches. They just love starting fires!

  17. I can imagine the amount of scrambling that DM is doing right now trying to figure out how to keep all the OT VIIIs and high donation public Scientologists and Celebrities from seeing these articles and letter from Paul Haggis. Of course he will fail to do so. High profile exits from his abuses that speak out and bring these things to light are what is going affect real change.

    DM’s probably drinking himself to sleep tonight with his bottles of Scotch. Either that, or holding onto his “grounding handles” in his 75 million dollar office/palace.

    This letter is going to have real impact in the Hollywood community. Maybe more of these Scientology celebrities will open their eyes too.

  18. This is a complete outrage and simply put bullshit.

    The truth will come out in the end.

    Never underestimate these pple- they are powerful.

    Please hold your ground.

  19. marty just like on geir isene’s blog i would like to see a discussion posting on scientology’s current stance on gays. Not just on gay identity per se, but scientology’s stance on members actively living out of the closet.

    • We had one. Take a look at the comments on the first segment of the letter, post: A very important letter – Part A.

  20. Marty, my concern is this letter was published and then went viral without Paul’s knowledge and/ or agreement.
    “Ziggy Kozlowski, a publicist for Haggis, confirmed that the director wrote the letter. Kozlowski said the letter was intended to remain private.”
    While it has been a great asset to the cause, if it has breached the trust of the individual involved, it has come at too high a price imo.

  21. It was 25 years ago that I had left the church. All of my scientology friends had disconnected from me. I was meeting a friend who had just escaped from the Scientology center out in Hemet, CA (the worldwide center) He was terrifieid, looking out the windows of the restaurant waiting for someone to appear and drag him back. As re would recount his story, he would pause and look into space and mutter over and over “Why was DM (David Miscavige) acting like that? He then went on to recount how DM would routinely pull people aside, spit in their face, strike them, rough them up our use large bodyguards to do the same at his behest. This has been a haunting image in my mind all of these years. I am suprised it has taken so long for the truth to come out about this man. The abuse started with Hubbard, but has been taken to a higher level by by this mean spirited bully. I applaud the courage of those who have come forward. It is not an easy road to choose.
    E. McGurk

  22. Paul Haggis is a bright man, extremely bright. Had he wanted his letter to remain only between himself and Tommy he wouldn’t have sent it to a few close friends. Once we reach the age of 10, we recognize that the only secrets that are kept – are those never shared.

    While Paul Haggis perhaps did not envision his letter going world wide – the causes and conditions (AKA Karma) came together in such a way that it did.

    Karma is simply put — causes and conditions coming together which create a certain effect. And that effect, creates new causes and conditions. And so it goes.

    Years of upset and talk about the CofS on anti-boards are part of the causes and conditions creating this viral reaction to Pauls letter — years of work by Marty to confront and heal his life etc.– the causes and conditions are interrelated and interdependent.

    ALL of us here on this board are part of HOW Paul’s letter went viral — just work with this concept and you’ll see that no one stands alone.

    No man is an island.

    WH

  23. What is amazing to me about this whole thing with disconnection is that the way that Davis says that the “Church” does not encourage disconnection. Umm, is it not policy for people connected to a suppresssive group, person or organization to disconnect? I can think of about 5 policies right off the top of my head that state just that. So for Davis to say that the “Church” does not encourage disconnection is an outright lie. In fact, it shows that he is not on policy himself.
    As a staff member of 13 years, one who held both Tech and Admin positions, I can say that the use of disconnection is done completely incorrectly. 95% of the staff that had situations with their families or friends did so because they were either asking them for money because they were so broke all the time or that the staff member just did not communicate much with the friends and families and so ARC broke them. The problem here is really the handling because as silly as is sounds, if the staff member was making enough money to eat and have a descent roof over his head then there would not be as much of a problem.
    As far as Scientology and gay people, well, try to join the Church as a staff member or a SO member and you will see the problem here. LRH mentions homosexuality in SOS with regards to tone level as well as the practice of it with regard to the second dynamic.

  24. Here is the link to an account of Tommy’s attempt to enter ABC premises last Thursday to “spike” the Nightline show: http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/scientology_flack_strikes_out_SJRNhKFTPOnH567DZ4Q4CO

    • Fantastic! Tommy never disappoints,
      I can see him standing at the door demanding to be let in and throwing a glorious temper tantrum! It would be wonderful to see tape of that. thanks for the link.

  25. Marty, thanks, I tried to follow the comments about homosexuality but as a non-scieno it was hard to follow. if you wouldnt mind help me understand, just simply, can an out gay or lesbian join scientology and be in good standing as an out person? or is homosexuality treated as something to “fix”/an illness/a crime? thanks

    • In the church under Miscavige – it is the latter. For myself – and others who are independent – it is the former.

    • Camel, they can “join” as an out gay person … but the moment they get to Flag (the top Church for the OT levels), they will be required to become abstinent of any homosexual activity, until their homosexuality is “cured”.

      Unless anyone knows of a case where a gay person who was in a gay relationship who was on the OT levels?

      • I was in the Sea Org for many years. During that time, I saw no degree of “tolerance” or “acceptance” of homosexuality.

        Whatsoever.

        It was considered an aberration, and a major one at that.

        That’s why I have been amazed during the last few years to see evidence that Scientology is courting the gay community.

        All I can think is 1) it’s because there are so many gay people in the celebrity circles that COS is so desparately trying to ingratiate themselves into and 2) gay people often have quite a bit of disposable income.

        Frankly, one thing that surprises me about Paul Haggis’ outrage is that he thought that Scientology in any way, shape or form would “stand up for gay rights”.

        All I can say is he’s been looking at a WAY different picture all this time than I was.

      • I know of an OTVlll woman that was gay, but married to a man. Big flap after she completed OTVlll and told her husband she was leaving him for another woman. She is a New OTVlll. Issue was totally suppressed by OSA. I found out because I know her and her husband and a friend of hers that was all over it with OSA to prevent a fallout. (It getting spread around)

  26. Hi Tommy,

    You’re reading this, I’m pretty sure. You really messed up the “Nightline” interview, dintcha? Man, that was pretty sad. But then…showing up an hour before the show, attempting to quash it? A network show? Are you serious? Did DM put you up to that one? OK, OK, forget that last one…

    You told him that was dumb, right? Because, as blind stupid as you can be sometimes, you knew that wasn’t going to work.

    Does it hurt when he beats you? He’s, umm…not a large man, I know, but he’s in pretty good shape. Gotta hurt, and you can’t strike back. A shame, that.

    Why are you taking this crap? Reports are that you’re independently wealthy, and your Mom made a few bucks back when she had a career. You know it’s all bunk, right? You know that the authorities will be coming soon, investigating reports of massive rights abuses, the RPF…you know more than I do about the actionable stuff, I’m sure.

    State’s Evidence, Tommy. Blow the “church”, cooperate with the authorities. When they come, do you think DM’s gonna fess up to save the likes of your boney ass? Or do you think he’s gonna throw you to the wolves, you and anyone else he can?

    State’s Evidence, Tommy. Because Paul Haggis is the least of the “church”‘s problems. Even Rathbun/Rinder/SP Times aren’t nearly as bad as what’s coming.

    State’s Evidence, Tommy. Save yourself. Get your life back. No more beatings. No more lying. No more defending the indefensible.

    State’s Evidence. It’s your only chance.

  27. http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/scientology_flack_strikes_out_SJRNhKFTPOnH567DZ4Q4CO

    Note: Article linked above does contain references to the OT III material. I have excerpted below what I believe is of interest.

    “LESS than an hour before a damaging piece on the Church of Scientology was set to air on ABC’s “Nightline,” the controversial faith’s spokesman, Tommy Davis, showed up unannounced at the studio and tried to get the segment spiked. ”

    ………..

    ” But just 45 minutes before the segment was to air on Thursday, Davis showed up at ABC headquarters on West 67th Street and asked to speak to Bashir and the show’s executive producer about the interview.

    “He demanded to a security guard that he be let in,” a network insider told Page Six. “The guard called ‘Nightline’ staffers down to come deal with him. He was told as politely as possible that the piece was cut and in the can and could not be changed and that Martin would be unable to see him. He was then asked to leave.” Adds our source, “He was not happy.” ”

    I can imagine he was not happy.

  28. In 2007 Mike Rinder (I assume it was he) tried the same trick on the BBC, withdrawing permission for Panorama to show celebrities being asked about OT3 material just a few days before broadcast. It worked.
    Therefore in his own mind Tommy could do the same – except it wasn’t the same, since he is a Church spokesperson and the celebrities were not.

  29. A bad week for the C of S, they were just convicted of Fraud, by the France Court of Law. Luckily they were’t banned as many hoped. Still for the first time a church was convicted of fraud in Europe and fined.

    It’s on the AP wire. Most hompages have just posted it.

  30. To thoughtful your analogy is so right on. Great posting. You have such a flair with description. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum!

    I know the dam will break real soon.

  31. In a lot of these news article, Scientology is referred to as a Faith or Belief System even though the most basic research will reveal that it is not. Part of the reason for this misunderstanding might be due to some scientologists in this recent wave of indie scientologists mistakenly refer to it as this themselves! I have seen it done in this very thread. I have not seen this sort of mistake being made in the independent field until recently so I’m not sure if it’s the new squirrel training or what but seriously, we need to get this straight. Scientology is NOT a belief system or a faith.

    I also see a constant confusion between “Scientology” and “Church of Scientology”. One of these is a subject and the other is a corrupt organization. This is another confusion I only started seeing in this new wave of indie scientologists.

    So a lot of these news stories say something like “Paul Haggis quits Scientology”. Has he? Has he given up and denounced the SUBJECT? Or has he only denounced the Church. If he has only denounced the Church then these article have an MU right off the bat in the headline, which is really, really poor journalism. I’ll take what we can get but we do need to be clear on these things so that MUs do not get propagated all over the place.

    If we cannot do this and the two terms continue to be intertwined in the minds of the public then people will think that what Miscaviage is doing IS scientology! In fact, a lot of people do think this right now.

    In short, if you are a real scientologist (i.e. have seen the light) then for pete’s sake make sure you have the following words word cleared:
    Scientology
    Church of Scientology
    Faith
    Belief System

  32. Also for those talking to the media (i.e. you Mark), I might suggest making a central point and say over an over that Scientology and the Church of Scientology are two different things and that the Church is not practicing Scientology. We desperately need to somehow disassociate Scientology from Miscavige-ology and the media is not helping with this.

    • Agreed.

    • I agree with the sentiment but you have to realize that 1; much of this association of Scn and CofS comes from the church itself and 2; it will take quite some time after dm is gone to “rehab” the name Scientology in the eyes of the public. Right now it might as well be a four letter word. Sad but true.

  33. The greater issue, and why I feel a huge deal of enturbulation by all of this, Marty, is that it’s now turning into just a big freakin sideshow in which the biggest casualty will be the Tech.

    And along those lines, would you really prefer to have PTSness all over your lines by allowing scios or staff or SO to stay connected with a family member who keeps inval’ing and eval’ing them about “being in a cult”?

    Intention butting counter-intention every minute of every day is a recipe for personal unhappiness and, on a group level, disaster.

    The handling is to disconnect or HANDLE! A bit of communication goes a long way toward successfully completing the latter, which I say from personal experience, so it’s not always just disconnect. I don’t know why everyone who’s declared an SP is but what else would you suggest in dealing with criminal acts against Scn?

    And please don’t be so reasonable about gays; I know it’s PC to be so but we’re talking about a pretty non-survival valence. I love my mother but I don’t want to be her.

    Paul Haggis is a cool enough guy but he hasn’t been on the bridge for years; decades maybe. What’s he resigning from that he hasn’t already unofficially left?

    It’s very hard for OTs to prosper in non-OT environments. Mostly, your tone comes down rather than theirs rising up; call it the law of the weight of too many aberrations.

    • Huck,
      You questions are all answered in earlier blog postings and publicly available interviews. Have at it.

    • Huckleberry. Would you email me at epgmbh@gmail.com?

    • Huckleberry,

      If family members keep ‘inval’ing and eval’ing’ Scns about ‘being in a cult’, then just maybe they are right and the CoS is a cult?

      By ‘Criminal acts against Scn?’ – do you mean criticising it publicly? Would you call someone a criminal just because they disagreed with you? And how would I suggest dealing with it? How about turning the other cheek like in a ‘proper’ religion and setting a good example of how the Tech works?

      And if, as you suggest, ‘It’s very hard for OTs to prosper in non-OT environments.’, it doesn’t sound as they are very OT, does it? Aren’t OTs supposed to be at cause over life?

      Your comment about not being ‘reasonable about gays’ is so offensive, I won’t say what I think about that here out of respect for what Marty is trying to do here. I don’t know you, but you don’t sound like a very tolerant person to me. Intolerance for others who don’t think the same way is widepsread in the CoS nowadays and is one of the main reasons that I left.

      • Ax,

        I mean no offence; it’s my view that homosexuality is a valence. I don’t stand here as a judge and executioner and I don’t have evil purps connected to the viewpoint. The goal, I always thought. was to strip a being of unwanted valences and allow them to be who they are. From there, you can mock up whatever you like, as long as you’re at cause.

        I’ve never seen Scn as the end game; the end game is a sane world without wars, famines, pestilence et al. The more sane beings, the better.

        I think this was the Old Man’s goal, too.

        I honestly don’t know what happened to the upper strata of management. But what concerns me is that I have a lot of respect for guys like Wilhere and Mithoff and I can’t fathom why they’re still hanging around if it’s become as degraded as Marty says it is.

        AnEx, I don’t really want to get drawn into this side of the fence until I have more data. Right now, it’s he said/she said.

    • Huck,
      I’ve read each of your posts on this thread, I’m going to comment overall here. First, yes, the current events can seem to be ‘enturbulating’ if not really confronted. Then, well, to the degree that one confronts simplicity ensues. The simplist part of this blog, of Marty’s purposes, are ‘getting in ethics’ on those whose ethics are not in. That is directed at this point to DM and those duped and PTS to him. That’s standard ethics my friend. Look up Ethics Gradients for example.

      As to the use of PTS/SP tech, in the end, if you’ve studied the materials, the alleviation of the problem that is the root of PTS (SP too, but a more ensconced problem) alleviates the condition. If ‘disconnecting’ from an SP, or in the vast, vast majority of current cases under DM, someone misdeclared an SP, results in more ‘problem’ then the PTS/SP tech is defeated. Look at the Suppressed Person Rundown. Do you see the questions there on out-rudiments toward the source of suppression? Do you understand why they are there? Can you understand that committing present time out ruds, mutual out ruds and so on, with regard to a source of real suppression does nothing but further entangle the being in the PTS condition? Forced disconnection is not handling the current problem. It is CAUSING them.

      YES, ‘disconnection’ is a valid datum, done according to the Code of Honor, and one’s actual, well considered and CLEAN ethics, case state with regard to the person one is deciding to sever ties with. That’s not in any kind of dilemma of being ‘thrown out with the bath water’.

      The ‘tech’ is currently a casualty from rampant suppression, alter-is and arbitraries and invalidation. The effort is to recover it so its routine miracles are as widespread and enjoyed by as many who will reach for the REAL THING.

      On the ‘OTs get along better with OTs’ idea. You are right. On the other hand, one is not free of the dynamics until one assumes full cause and responsibility for all of them. You can ‘exit’ from the top, or the bottom. The top is the better choice.

      OK, lastly, on the ‘gay’ issue. Tommy’s recent comments that the church is supposed to be politics free are exactly correct. Either way, for or agin Prop 8, the church is not involved as a church or body. Individuals should vote with their conscience and according to their education, experience and knowledge.

      My opinion is similar to yours, though more references are involved, and my very own observation. My brother died of AIDs related to sexual intercourse with another man who was HIV infected. I, as the lone Scientologist in my family, had enough confront on the issue to actually talk to him, and more importantly, I was there to give him as much succor as I could, while he confronted the issues all mortals face.

      We ended up as beings, not bodies, not ‘sexual entities’ not anything but spiritual beings, seeing sex and male and female as body related. He knew he was not ‘gay’, he was not ‘a breeder’ he was and is a spiritual being. Within several hours of that realization, he left that body, in peace and with peace from me. He seems to be doing quite nicely these days too.

      There are about 3-31/2% of the population that are ‘gay’. That number is about what it has been since man started to be aware he existed on earth as recorded in his records for this existence, the past some thousands of years. That number hasn’t really changed.

      Now, while I have my own understanding and viewpoint and reality on these issues, it is also very real to me that ‘gay bashing’ is not any way to interact with this minority of people. I think that is the real point being made. It is for me.

      As to what’s going on in the world of Scientology today, well, hang in there, GO ON STUDY, GET A SESSION, apply it in your daily life, go for a long bike ride in the mountains, kiss a pretty girl, help your kid with their homework, support efforts to clean the earth, end the insanity of war, torture of any kind, and please, for the future of our movement, get in ethics, tech and admin on the world around you or YOU will be too enturbulated to do your job as a Scientologist or any job. That’s what those of us on this blog that have been at this for a while now are doing. It is an unmitigated adventure of the highest and most satisfying order.

      P.S. I’ve no need of being ‘PC’ on any topic. I’m certainly not worried about that on the ‘gay’ issue. I’m also very, very flat on Grade O and can talk to anyone on any topic. Even more, I can actually listen to someone, gay, straight, not sure, abstinate, celibate, heck even the Masturbator’s Masturbator Dalton Trumbo, and you know, it sure is interesting looking at life from all sorts of different viewpoints.

  34. Lying appears to be well grooved in by Miscavige, I was reading through a deposition of DM at a Bent Corydon trial. He was asked if he had done the OEC course. After many many many questions resulting from his “clarfification” of what he was being asked, he said “No”, circa 1990.

  35. To make it clear, follow this link, hit ctrl-F, type OEC into the search box and you can quickly find the reference:

    http://www.davidmiscavige.wikiscientology.org/text/Deposition_of_David_Miscavige%2C_the_Witness%2C_July_19%2C_1990_-_Part_1

    No school isn’t bad, but no OEC and restructure of Management is mental, how did he know how to restructure it?

  36. Boy the gift that just keeps giving. Article about Scientology in France. “Fraud” you know he will probably use this to raise more money.
    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9BJIDAG0&show_article=1

  37. “It’s very hard for OTs to prosper in non OT environments”? Being an OT was never meant to be an elitist bubble that OTs don’t venture out for fear of being contaminated by the riff raff. The entire point of being an OT is have the spiritual clarity to CREATE an OT environment by pulling up those around you thru COMMUNICATION and applying the tech with your own actions to better the conditions of your peers whether they are Scientologists or not, let alone OTs.

    • If you look at the policy of ‘disconnection’ and how the C of S has been applying it; it is a failure. The C os S has empty buildings, the public has never viewed it so negatively, (on AOL yesterday 98% viewed Scientology negatively), the majority of parishioners are unhappy and/or cowed and the only expansion has been in square footage and negative balance sheets for the parishioners.

    • That’s the ideal, Louis, but you’d have to be a powerful OT to hold your space and withstand the inevitable attempts of the lower toned to cut you down at the knees.

      It’s about tone level, Louis, not necessarily case level and having been to every corner of this planet, I’m here to tell you that the global tone level could use a boost.

      I’m not here to go tit-for-tat but I’ll just say that my ovearching concern is that when this planet blows itself to smithereens, I’d prefer not to be left floating around, clueless and regretting the fact that Scn was ripped apart while I stood by and did nothing but post on a blog.

      • martyrathbun09

        Huck, that is precisely why we are doing what we are doing. Left to his own devices – Miscavige IS blowing Scientology to smithereens.

  38. I think Huckleberry has missed the point. Of course you can VOLUNTARILY disconnect from someone who is invalidating you, etc. The point being argued is ENFORCED disconnection. And Enforced disconnection is clearly done to cut comm lines.

    From my viewpoint the Church as 2 options:
    1. Defend Disconnection (which I don’t think you can do) and if asked about it by the press than acknowledge it is done and do your best to justify it.
    2. Cancel Disconnection (i.e. ‘enforced disconnection’) and come out publicly and state it is cancelled.

    The really stupid thing to do is to continue ‘enforced disconnection’ policy and then go on public television and state it is not a current policy. That just makes everything else you say after that suspect. And not believeable

    • And what is the point of all the auditing and training if you find you need to disconnect from people? Shouldn’t you be MORE ABLE to tolerate and experience people?

      Sure disconnect from raving looneys, while you are in the midst of an auditing cycle, so that you can get the full results….but dont disconnect from life because some parts or people in it are not to your liking.

      At some point a scientologist should become able enough to never have to disconnect, and perhaps big enough so that they can experience anything, and thus not need to “handle”. (And not create effects that others need to disconnect from or handle…)

      “SP’s?” Pish….a minor case condition, nothing to get worried about. (If you have the tech).

      Just an opinion.

      • martyrathbun09

        Dave, good point. Disconnect is a repudiation and invalidation of the EP of Grade 0 for crying out loud.

      • Dave Adams.

        You da man!!!!!!

        I agree with you completely!

        Thank you for shining the bright light of sanity on this whole discussion.

        I mean that’s reason the Ol’man canceled disconnection in the first place, because that’s what it is a case condition.

        Says so right in the HCOPL which Davey tends to ignore along with about 99.9% of the tech!

        Have you seen Rebels recent post in “Leaving Scientology”?

        http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/

        By the way while your there vote on how you think the little poison dwarf is doing so far.

        Winner gets a Big Mac!!!

        (legalize: offer does not exist except in author’s fervent imagination)

        Just tell ’em RJ sent ya 🙂

  39. As the above post states there would be no disagreement that one would want to disconnect from someone who is invalidating them and try as they might it just won’t handle.

    People do this all the time – whether a member of the Church or not. Anyone ever experienced a co-worker or acquaintance that belittles everything and everyone? If you can’t handle them you just may want to not be in their vacinity. Or a neighbor that antagonizes you? If you can’t handle them – you should probably move.

    Perhaps the real situation is the use and sometimes misuse of Declares and this would be a more fruitful subject to address and handle.

    Proper justice is sane while injustice can be very disturbing matter.

    I have seen some Declares I thought were spot on and served to protect others in the environment ,yet I have seen some that I just didn’t understand how it got to that point as it seemed it could have been handled far sooner. I didn’t have a problem with the first but the latter didn’t sit well and I didn’t feel disconnection was warranted.

    Just a thought.

  40. Underground For Now

    Now the hot news about Scientology losing the fraud case in France is up on the http://www.drudgereport.com web site.

    The Drudge Report averages around 23 million hits in a 24 hour cycle.

    We are witnessing a PR meltdown that seems to grow like a bad virus.

    • Thanks for the update but let’s be clear here. Scientology was never on trial because Scientology is not an entity or a person, it is a philosophy. The Church of Scientology lost a fraud case, not Scientology. Couldn’t be a bigger difference between these two things.

  41. UFN,

    Thanks for posting the link. This is what Tommy D said to the press about the fraud of Cos in France:
    “It’s really all bark and no bite,” said the spokesman of the Church of Scientology International, Tommy Davis. “The church will emerge victorious on appeal.”
    Speaking by telephone from New York, Davis said the Church of Scientology was prepared to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights.”

    Tommy, How dare you are talking about “Human Rights”! You are breaking those Rights with your parishioners daily. European Court of Human Rights would laugh at you and your case.
    How can you defend yourself when you are taken to court by your parishioners for the violation of their Human Rights and your Human Trafficking?

  42. Well if they do take it to the European Court of Human Rights and lose it will be the beginning of the end of the game in europe.
    If it has such power then the decisions in the past would have to be overturned across europe. And the precedent set for the future.
    I don’t think hollywood can afford to keep CofS out of the soup after that.

  43. The whole point here is that if Scientology weren’t committing acts of abuse, then disconnection would hardly ever be needed. But abuse is what is going on and that creates unhappy people that become antagonistic.

    Don’t be mistaken, they are applying Scientology, just differently than some of you would apply it. You just happen to not like how they are applying it.

    • Truthrules,
      Again with the ‘not truth’. I’m beginning to think your nickname is a sarcasm. Sup wi’dat?

    • Scientology can’t commit acts of abuse, only people can. It’s like saying freedom commits acts of abuse – it doesn’t make sense. It is a subject, a philosophy. A philosophy can’t itself commit acts of abuse, only people can.

      And no, these people are NOT practicing scientology. Perhaps you wish it were scientology because you want it to make it wrong so bad but just because you want to make something wrong doesn’t mean it is for all those looking at this objectively. In fact, the entire issue here, the main reason all these people are here and the reason why all these people are leaving is precisely because the church is NOT following scientology. The primary reason we are in this situation is because scientology was not applied.

      Just to make this clear: Black scientology is not scientology, it is the OPPOSITE of scientology.

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