Harassment of Haggis – it will backfire

dirtytricks

church goes Old School Cold War on man of conscience

If anyone listened to my interview on CBC radio last week, you may recall I said the church would not be foolish enough to mess with Paul Haggis. Well, my friends in and around the OSA Network and within the journalism community have informed me of facts that have disabused me of the notion that the church retains any smarts.  Apparently, I sorely underestimated DM’s level of desperation and madness.

OSA has instituted a Cold War era operation wherein Paul’s counseling files have been culled for “transgressions” the church thinks might make news. Tid bits have been leaked to “independent journalists” (who in fact are not independent and are not really journalists). It is being done in a J Edgar Hooveresque manner, making it look like  “reporters” have on their own initiative found some cracks in Paul’s armor and “old friends” have had some come-to-Jesus moments where they feel compelled to talk about Paul.

As much as I have underestimated DM’s depravity, he has underestimated our resources.  We are watching this unfold and when and if it comes to what DM considers fruition, he will be hoisted by his own petards.

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105 responses to “Harassment of Haggis – it will backfire

  1. Could this list of “independent journalists” be leaked? Anyone agreeing to be a tool for the bullies need to be fully exposed in the public eye, in the name of public interest.

  2. It might help predict OSA’s and Int’s responses better if you realize that all execs who are covering up DM’s off-policy brutality and out-2D activity are factually in a condition of Treason to Scientology and all that it stands for.

    You may recall that Treason is an out of valence condition. In any effort to deal with OSA or Int, you are not dealing with people capable of handling their posts standardly or sanely.

    I think that any staff who are just now learning of DM’s perfidy will find that their reach is cut as far as dealing with Scientology public.

    How does one reg a prospect for a training or auditing package suspecting that it will not be delivered standardly. I have already seen a change in this area and I think it will become a big problem until standard remedies are applied at Int and across the board in Scn Organizations.

    Hardworking staff deserve a safe environment in which to work. They will soon have to decide whether they will follow DM’s version of policy or LRH policy.

    Those who fail to confront this will have to drop into robotism and abdicate all responsibility.

    There is a lot of work ahead for independent Scientologists and for Scn staff who want to set things right again. This is no time to tolerate natter about old injustices, our efforts must be directed to using the Tech to repair the damage done to SCN organizations and to remove the DM alterations to processes, needle reads, etc.

    The first step is to realize our own personal condition regarding this scene.

  3. I am posting an entire quotation is taken from the book “The Hidden Story of Scientology” by Omar V. Garrison written in 1974 because I think it really strikes at the heart of the entire issue of Church abuses:

    In the face of growing uneasiness about harsh Ethics within the movement, and mounting hostility outside, in 1968 Hubbard ordered a public opinion survey of the Church’s current structure and practices. According to Scientology spokesmen, 318, 885 questionnaires were sent to all parts of the world.

    As a result of the replies received, Hubbard issued a directive dated November 15, 1968, cancelling the practice of disconnection, security checking, and fair game, and the writing down or otherwise recording of any confessional materials.

    Later, in a policy letter of March 7, 1969, a continuing ameliorating of Ethics procedures was indicated.

    “We are going in the direction of mild ethics and involvement with the Society,” Hubbard wrote. “After 19 years of attack by the minions of vested interest, psychiatric front groups, we developed a tightly disciplined organizational structure.

    “I don’t like to see my friends pushed around. We didn’t know it at the time, but out difficulties and failures were the result of false reports put out by the small but rich and powerful, group of individuals who would deny man freedom.

    “Now that we know … we will never need a harsh spartan discipline for ourselves.

    “It has become apparent that such duress is not necessary when one has a technology which sets man free.”

    It was partly on the basis of these policy reforms that the New Zealand Commission of Inquiry recommended that no legislative action be taken against Scientology.

    In concluding their Report, the commissioners set down a word of warning and advice. “The commission feels that for the future Scientology should regard as indispensable certain rules of practice. These are:

    1. No reintroduction of the practice of disconnection.
    2. No issue of Suppressive Person or Declaration of Enemy orders by any member to any other member of a family.
    3. No auditing or processing or training of anyone under the age of twenty-one without the specific written consent of both parents; such consent to include approval of the fees (which shall be specified) to be charged for the course or courses to which the consent is applicable.
    4. A reduction to reasonable dimensions of ‘promotion’ literature sent through the post to individuals, and prompt discontinuance of it when this is requested.”

    If the Scientologists in New Zealand would observe these rules, the Report added, “no further occasion for Government or public alarm should arise…”.

    Neither Hubbard nor his followers made any objection to these reasonable strictures, and the Church has continued to function in New Zealand without further interference by Government authorities.

    • Now this is a government action that needs to be mirrored in every country around the world. Brilliant. Let’s get it disseminated widely. Many thanks for posting it Maria.

      Let those petards roll.

    • This is an incredible post!!
      Thanks you Maria.

    • You are absolutely right. If Scientology went back to the ‘reform codes’ issued back it ’69 the organization would not be having the difficulties with the public and Governments, In fact I recommended this course of action……

      And look where I am now 🙂

      Any way the problem is that J Edgar Miscavige knows best and will continue to use the worst aspects of Scientology to manipulate and control others. The dark side or more accurately Black Scientology such as broadly releasing confidential folder data, particularly confessional or sec check information, continuing the practice of disconnection and running similar ops to Freakout.

      The guy is like a scavenger!

      Any thing the Ol’man found as unworkable and tossed out or was destructive to the subject like quickie grades Miscavige has embraced with enthusiastic zeal!

      Never mind whose side this guy is working for. The fact is he ain’t working for us.

    • Never read that HCO PL, that is amazing and note: shorty thereafter throughout the 70’s and into the start of the 80’s was, stats wise and delivery stats-wise especially, Scientology’s golden age.

  4. Not that I doubt your word, but it’s fairly important to post dox (documents) links, or hard data when reporting on C of S out ethics.

    The C of S has a long history of reporting on critics and ex’s without any dox. I think it’s important that we don’t fall into the same boat.

    • Pretty important if you are running a court case in a court room. It is Damn Important to report as I do. Many lives are saved a lot of grief because of it.

  5. I am gobsmacked. They saw how wide-spread was the coverage of Paul Haggis’s resignation. They must assume the risk that any harassment would get equal exposure. They can’t see that they are the ones who will look the worst out of this?

    Tommy Davis has lied on CNN – national television. Haggis called him out. Nobody will ever again trust a word that Davis or the Church of Scientology says so long as Davis is the spokesman.

  6. Compare how LRH handled the defection of and criticism from prominent writer William S. Burroughs. In an April, 1970 response in Mayfair magazine, he was respectful of Burroughs, and stated, “Outright lies and false accusations are not something that can be corrected. But honest and valid criticism is always welcome because it helps a lot of good people do a better job.”

    Miscavige is incapable of thinking that way, or writing such a response. His first and only thought will be “how do I get revenge.”

    • Rebel, you quoted LRH as saying “Outright lies and false accusations are not something that can be corrected.”

      If LRH said that he must have been unable to prove Burroughs wrong and the sentence sounded good to him to use in rebuttal. Because LRH promoted using the Dead Agent caper in PR where one documents lies and falsehoods with the truth and the reader will never again believe the source. Thats how you DA someone.

      It only makes Marty’s point that LRH was human. And If they try to burn Haggis it will backfire. But they still could do it. Over all these years the organizations practices belie its philosophy, and it continues to do destructive things to its members and reputation.

      • martyrathbun09

        To document lies and use the fact to argue against a detractor’s credibility is one thing, and an attack on someone’s personal life (particularly when embellished and/or false) is quite another.

    • That’s a very good point. And one in LRH’s favor.

      Other examples of LRH’s handling of defections from and criticisms of Scientology are not so favorable to LRH.

      But this one definitely exists.

  7. I spotted what I assume to be a premature leak of this on the ‘Comments’ section of an online article last week. It had all the hallmarks of being from the OSA team, and made a muckraking reference not to Haggis himself but to a member of his family.
    For a long while now OSA has given up on the wog world. They only care about internal PR and staying out of RPF.

  8. Wow Maria…that is quite a find! All written down in Omar’s book over 35 years ago!!!

    I wonder if ANY of these points were ever truly accepted and implemented. And if so, what happened because DM didn’t come to the helm until the early 80s. By this time had these recommendations been forgotten because they were never put in or what?

    Again Maria…great find. Marty can you comment?

    • Yes, LRH read that book and approved Omar as his own biographer because of it. If anyone has an extra copy, you mind lending it out?

      • Is it this specific NZ event that caused LRH to cancel disconnection I wonder? And was security checking ever not done for a time after this as well, but some how later put back in? I cannot imagine sec checking not being done on pc’s just as general routine to keep one “clean”, as opposed to what it’s come to which is fishing for names of people DM thinks are out to get him.

      • I have a copy but I don’t want to give it a way but lending is ok as long as I am assured I will get it back.

        It was my father’s and it is old.

      • Marty,

        You can read the whole book on line at the following link:

        http://www.freezone.org/timetrack/data/Playing_Dirty/index.htm

    • The entire book, The Hidden Story of Scientology is published online here:

      http://www.freezone.org/timetrack/data/Hidden_Story/index.htm

      The quotation is in the chapter: “The Little Gods Down Under”

    • When I trained on ethics posts in 1977 there were no “I’m not auditing you” sec check type confessionals being done. You could do ethics security checks for sources of trouble. There was no disclosure of any p.c. folder information. NEVER. PCs cases were not discussed either, per Ivory Tower. Any ethics action went through the C/S even if only for info. Ethics folders were locked up at all times and were not used outside of the locked up ethics offices. SP declares required proper ethics gradients with comm ev or immediate comm ev for the gravest of offenses. I never heard of any disconnection, except as something done years ago. That all changed some time in 1980-81. Instant declares, no comm evs, no ethics gradients, session KRs, and and and… I walked away.

      • I do remember, in the mid 70’s, that pc folders of potential threats would go to the GO. I know that there was some kind of culling going on, but never in Tech or Qual.

  9. Well DM is just duplicating the SP traits by the book! Is anyone still in doubt about his status?

  10. A REAL Scientologist would be capable of granting the beingness affirmed in the creed of their church, for example:

    “That all men have inalienable rights to conceive, choose, assist or support their own organizations, churches and governments;

    That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others;

    That all men have inalienable rights to the creation of their own kind; ”

    A criminal, on the other hand:
    CRIMINAL, 1. the criminal, the suppressive
    person (same thing) is trying to get even
    with people. That’s his common denominator.
    He does it by covert omissions or overt
    violence. It all amounts to the same thing.
    (HCO PL 7 Dec 69 II) LRH – Admin Dictionary

    Someday I would love to hear the back story on “The Criminal Mind” HCOB. It reads to me like DM’s autobiography.

  11. Mickey, Sec checking came back in in the early 70s under the name Integrity Processing. It was all BTBs and those were later cancelled. But by then sec checking had come back into use. For your info, that is what nearly all “auditing” delivered in the SO to SO members consists of, in one form or another. No Grade Chart, just sec checking.

    • Yeah I remember those days Joe.

      Those IP forms were brutal, since they missed withholds then they found!

      HCO BULLETIN OF 24 JANUARY 1977
      Remimeo
      All Auditors
      All Supervisors
      All Interneships
      URGENT AND IMPORTANT
      TECH CORRECTION ROUND-UP:

      (begin fair use)

      E: SEC CHECKING AND INTEGRITY PROCESSING
      Following down the trail of auditors missing R/Ses, it was found that Sec Checking
      had become a nearly lost art.
      Sec Checking means, unfortunately, “Security Checking.” That it was so misnamed
      in its origins obscures the fact that Confessionals have been part and parcel of
      religion nearly as long as religion has existed.
      In actual fact the meter simply gets a pastor or minister over the very dangerous
      situation of missing a withhold on his parishioner. A person with a missed withhold
      can become very upset with the person who misses it; the meter, properly operated,
      makes sure that none are missed.
      In an effort to get around what was thought to be a public relations scene, the
      name “Security Checking” was changed to “Integrity Processing.” This was also a PR
      error because the actual truth of the matter is it originated as “Confessional” and should
      have simply been changed back to “handling of confessions.”
      This administrative demand of name alteration threw the original issues on “Sec
      Checking” into disuse.
      Additionally “Integrity Processing” did not include all the tech of Sec Checking.
      And some even thought they were different subjects!
      The loss of Sec Checking, more properly called Confessionals, and the failure to
      use a meter to verify withholds resulted in many student blows (dropouts) and has
      permitted the continuance of a great deal of natter and upset which are simply the result
      of missing withholds on people.
      When you realize that a lot of the trouble of the Roman Catholic Church probably
      arose through not having a meter to verify the completeness of Confessionals, you can
      see what the loss of Sec Checking would do to our own churches and organizations. In
      other words, we were about to repeat history!
      All this original “Sec Checking,” properly Confessional, tech is being rounded up
      again and will be issued in checksheet form and there will be courses in “The Handling
      of Confessionals.” But even before you receive these, you should resume the use of
      278
      this metered tech as it will save you having people “mad at you” simply because you
      have missed withholds on them.
      It is highly self-protective both from the viewpoint of the auditor and the organization
      to have the proper metered handling of Confessionals fully in.
      BTB 31 Aug 1972RA “HCO CONFESSIONAL PROCEDURE” clarified the
      matter but this bulletin was on a very limited distribution and is not known. It contains
      the tech I developed on Sec Checking in the autumn of ‘72.
      There should be no further confusion in this matter. “Sec Checking,” “Integrity
      Processing” and “Confessionals” are all the exact same procedure and any materials on
      these subjects is interchangeable under these titles.
      The materials when all recollected and consolidated and reissued will be under the
      title of “Confessionals.” But even before that reaches you, you had better determine to
      become an expert in it, since an auditor’s inability to handle this is a fast route to “how
      to win enemies and wrongly influence people.”

      (end fair use)

      Seems Davey is not only reversing Scientology but Dale Carnegie as well!

      It’s amazing that the guy gets his shoes on the right feet!

      • JoeDan and RJ and Maria – you three are nicely “long in the tooth” as regards the history of this specific point of sec checking/integrity processing/confessionals. Thanks so much for contributing this info.

        I made my entree into Scn it looks like right after the above LRH issue was written, so I never knew this subject was so minimized and used in a narrow way (per Maria). When you compare to what we have today, it’s easy to see how off base the purpose of it has become.

        As a newly operating independent community, I would be curious to know how you intend to now use this confessional tech (it’s more gentle and proper name for sure) now that there is no organization to keep it’s membership in line with the sec check threat in one’s mind? I think this might just be some valuable info if you don’t mind imparting it for those people considering making the break from the old to the new (and standard I bet) ways you offer.

        Thanks!

      • Sure Mickey.

        I hope this reply ends up in the right place (a short prayer to the computer gods).

        Any way confessionals actually correctly belong on Grade II. Here’s what Ron says about it in HCO BULLETIN OF 31 AUGUST 1974 C/S Series 93 NEW GRADE CHART:

        (begin fair use)

        GRADE II
        248
        Some orgs specialize in Grade II, especially on org staff. The pc is always getting
        Integrity Processing or his O/Ws pulled on so and so.
        If you look on the Grade Chart you will find Withholds and Overts are Grade
        TWO.
        Below Grade TWO lies Grade I (Problems) and Grade Zero (Communications).
        And below that is Dianetics and at the bottom end of Dianetics is the Drug Handling.
        Now how do you expect a fellow who has unhandled drugs (or omitted drug
        items because of “no interest”) to even know (no Grade 0) that other people are around
        or that (Grade I) he is caved in with problems he’s never cognited on?
        And he’s supposed to have enough responsibility to answer up on Grade II? With
        real overts and withholds?
        This does not mean you must never Sec Check. It does mean that Sec Checks are
        no substitute for auditing or guarantee of innocence.
        Grades are Grades and the Grade Chart sequence is correct.

        (end fair use)

        The only purpose I’d use them for is part of Grade II. Here in the Indie Field we don’t have to worry about infiltration or anything like that like the Org did to prevent what has happened from happening.

        Since there is really no Organization to protect any longer, we don’t have those pesky security concerns to worry about. So we can just audit 🙂

      • RJ, Nice, nice to know how you view this now. As long as you offered that answer, may I also assume you’re pretty much throwing out the new GAT methodologies as well?

        Your counseling must me experienced as pretty stress free for your pc’s. Again…very nice.

      • “(M)ay I also assume you’re pretty much throwing out the new GAT methodologies as well?”

        Well Mickey I was never a big fan of GAT when it was first introduced by the Clown on Board.

        Even less so when I experienced it for myself!

        Personally I think they should be chucked out along with the Clown and HCOPL ‘Drills Allowed’ should be reissued and reenforced 🙂

        Not that I’m against drilling, mind you but the HCOBs themselves now give the precise procedures or actions required and their correct sequence.

        Something that didn’t exist at the time when Ron gave ‘a Talk on a Basic Qual’.

        For instance could you imagine some neophyte learning to fly ruds from the HCOB ‘Flying Ruds’?

        Now there’s HCOB Ruds Def and Patter which by the way the GAT drills grossly alter!

        At that time also there was no single HCOB on L&N other than the Laws. You had to listen to dozens of lectures on R2 10 and R2 12 to get a clue.

        Now it’s part of the Assessment Drills line up, which again the GAT drills totally screw up!

        Besides there was an effort in the early ’70’s called the Auditor Expertise Drills that issued many procedures and actions as BTBs that were about as popular as a skunk at a picnic!

        I guess the Ol’man figured that if ya want something done right then ya gotta do it yourself, so these drills were canceled and HCOBs covering the various auditing actions followed when the RED called the ‘End of Endless Training’ came out. Producing BDs and F/Ns on Tech and Qual lines 🙂

        Any way typical of the Clown. He takes what seemed to have been a good idea at the time (anyone remember Disconnection?) which later became a bad idea and seems to have an innate ability to make it even worse!

    • I was AOSHUK SO from 1972-1986, then in LA until 1996. At SH I got maybe 400 hours (pre-NED) auditing, 99% of it Grade Chart including full Expanded Grades, plus Solo-OT3. I had literally zero sec-checking at SH. In LA I had 100+ hours of sec-checking and literally two hours of Grade Chart.

    • Joe, I can definitely attest to that all grade chart progress immediately halted the minute I joined SO in 1987.

      • Woman, that is a shame. There’s nothing like auditing on the Grades. Your awareness changes through each Grade exactly matching the awareness levels running up the center of the Grade Chart. It’s quite a trip, especially when you get onto Grade III and become aware of “body.” I really hope you get to enjoy them someday.

    • Is it possible that DM is dramatizing which case action he needs by enforcing it on others?
      🙂
      Alex

    • Sec checking is indeed abused in the SO, and ethics interviews too – they are used to shut you up. Whenever I got loud and overt about a major outness, (what you’re supposed to do), I would be put on the meter for an interview immediately. For a little stretch I probably got 5 interviews in a month. Kept me clean but geez…

  12. This will backfire on them as Paul is well respected in the industry.

  13. The Church responses to the various flaps in the media appear to me to be The Why is God.

    In D/S 19 ‘The Real Why’, LRH states the real Why is “that basic outness found which will lead to a recovery of stats”. The real Why must open the door to improvement, and something you can control, otherwise you are just giving mere explanation.

    To attack those speaking out as fringe lunatics and other epithets does not open the door to improvement. The Church cannot turn off the internet from those lunatics making postings, and they cannot shut down newpapers and a free press who are publishing articles the Church does not like. So this is not a Why which the Church can control, it is a mere explanation.

    Therefore you would have to do an analysis of the situation to find the correct Why. I have not done the analysis but here is a couple I came up with:

    1. The Sea Org attracts lunatics as members. This one is tough to confirm as it would call all current Sea Org members as possible lunatics, including those now in Upper Mgmt.

    2. There is serious out-tech or no-tech being applied. All of the flappers were Scientologists who have received Church auditing, including confessionals. Many would have received sec checks on leaving the Church. Yet they are flapping now that they are out. So tech was either not correctly applied or not applied at all. This is, of course, a problem as it indicates there is serious out-tech.

    3. There really are abuses going on at Int Mgmt, and if you find the Who that is abusing staff you can correct the situation. I suppose the Church has partly taken this approach, as they claim that Marty and Mike were the ones doing the abusing. This is problematic, however, as it leaves other ex-staff who are still flapping. Was Amy decking other staff with her right fist when she was at Int Base?

    And God help the evaluator who does the analysis and determines the Why is the senior leadership of the Church. As this cannot possibly be true, it would never be accepted, and no real handling will occur. And the stats will not improve. And the flapping will continue.

    The Why is not God. And God helps those who help themselves.

    • Jonathon Barbera

      UnDisturbed commented as a possible why: “The Sea Org attracts lunatics as members.”

      If we honestly raise our confront of the conditions under which Sea Org crew are willing to work and live, we would discover that the Sea Org attracts degraded beings. There is a HCO PL (Sea Org Resignations?) that states how a person leaving the Sea Org is a degraded being. But I am suggesting that the person was a degraded being for having joined.

      Anyone who is willing to sacrifice their normal lives and all that for a 80+ hour work week with little pay or incentives is a degraded being. Anyone willing to be abused and exploited is a degraded being. Yes, we all joined because we wanted to help and we did help, but anyone who can have his or her HELP button worked to sign a billion year contract is a degraded being.

      The Why is God and David Miscavige is almost forced to play “God” to keep his crew. Per LRH, degraded beings can only work for suppressives!

      Anyone who walks away from David Miscavige is on the road out of degradation.

      But for anyone doubting my reasoning, ask yourself this: if the Church of Scientology was reformed to your satisfaction, would you return to the Sea Org?

      • JB: just to clarify, the Sea Org member as lunatic was a joke! If Tommy Davis says those speaking out are the lunatic fringe, and they were all once in the Sea Org, … well you get the picture.

      • There are great people working in the Sea Org. They give what they can and they have honest intentions. To say that they are degraded beings is a generality and causes ARCbreaks. I had great auditiors, great beings, they make what they can for the benefit of others and they are true believers.

      • Dude, with a shot that cold, I hope for your sake that you never run into some of the people who post on this blog.

      • “If we honestly raise our confront of the conditions under which Sea Org crew are willing to work and live, we would discover that the Sea Org attracts degraded beings.”

        Wow Barbera!

        I can’t believe that you are writing this!!!

        This is such a generalization!!!

        Based on such an incredible leap of “logic”!!!

        Personally, I was never in the SO, but I worked along side many SO members and they were for the most part all dedicated Scientologists!

        Some of them were there because the Ol’man personally asked them to be there!!!

        They put aside their personal ambitions to help Ron advance Scientology and so he could get on with his research in a relatively safe environment!

        What you write is such a blatant generality and a lie. Similar to Miscavige’s assertion that the GO were nothing but criminals!!!

        Or that anyone that is against his program to destroy Scientology must be “SP”!

        You should really learn to differentiate Jonathon.

        My suggestion is that you review the Data Series with a good standard English Dictionary close by.

      • “If we honestly raise our confront of the conditions under which Sea Org crew are willing to work and live, we would discover that the Sea Org attracts degraded beings. There is a HCO PL (Sea Org Resignations?) that states how a person leaving the Sea Org is a degraded being. But I am suggesting that the person was a degraded being for having joined.”

        I firmly believe that David Miscavige feels this way about SO members, which may have a lot to do with his obvious total contempt for them.

        It’s more and more obvious the more you look at it that he hates Scientology: the organization (which he’s torn apart), the staff (who he has trashed); the public (who he is bleeding dry).

        You kind of have to think that he WANTS to destroy it.

        You know?

    • UD,
      And we ARE helping ourselves, maybe that’s the Sit from DM’s view. He don’t like dat.

    • UD,
      I got the joke.

      • Thanks Jim:
        Guess I did not make the writing very clear if others took it seriously. It was suppose to be tongue in cheek, I will try harder next time.

  14. You don’t get to see a religion’s reformation everyday, especially one as unique as Scientology.

    Good on you! But PLEASE-O-PLEASE find a way to ensure that Doctor Robert Lifton’s Mind Control model, as well as the BITE model of mind control are completely handled and that Independent Scientologists are trained to confront them and dissolve them from within and without.

    Hearing Marty quote the Milgrim studies on authority is damn refreshing.

    P-l-e-a-s-e provide the world a Scientology that confronts and overcomes these realities and empower Scientologists to spot them and overcome them.

    And saying the original tech does that doesn’t cut it IMHO.

    Making these models for mind control well known in the Scientology world would be a great start.

    Marty, thanks for alluding to Milgrim and other studies!

    LRH was human. He did use some of these models, but I don’t think he did it on purpose. The current church has taken these mind control models way beyond what LRH did.

    Go-Go Independent Scientologists!

    • Additionally, I have often said I think if LRH were still alive or embarking on research of the mind in recent time since his passing, he might go in a different direction as regards his stance on other practices (from psychiatry to other choices in general).

      As an example, in the field of psychiatry/psychology, there is an area that appears to be an oxymoron to a Scientologist: “An International Association of Spiritual Psychiatry was founded in 1994 to promote the integration of the spiritual dimension into modern medicine, psychology and psychiatry.”
      http://essence-euro.org/iasp/

      Marty Rathbun, a modern day Martin Luther, a reformer, because situations and culture changes over time and thus demand reformation.

      (PS. I include in this statement all the others from Int as well….I’m sure before launching this you gathered with the some others who post here as well and discussed going in this new independent community concept direction….you ended up at the tip of the spear is all!)

      • martyrathbun09

        Mickey, nice perspective on LRH. I am auditing the Happiness Rundown today, which happened to be one of his last complete rundown works. Do you realize that if all staff and public had thorough HRDs and lived the virtues, there wouldn’t be a single abuse to handle? There wouldn’t even be debates about whether a 1965 PL, or 1973 Guardian’s order or FO, were the why for some current or past affair. Pull out TWTH – you are absolutely correct about other practices.

      • Mickey,
        `Psychs` is a GPM item. That`s a Goals Problem Mass `character`. Some dramatize the item, some dramatize its opposing item.

        The aim in Scientology is to free one of these dramatizations. LRH never lost sight of that. To consider otherwise is to not understand the subject fully.

      • “Jim Logan // November 6, 2009 at 1:20 am
        The aim in Scientology is to free one of these dramatizations. LRH never lost sight of that. To consider otherwise is to not understand the subject fully.”

        Huh??? You lost me on this one.

      • Mickey,
        I’m agreeing with you.

  15. Maria’s post re Omar garrisons book is probably concerning ” Reform Code” in admin Dict.

    ” We sent out mailings…….”

    • Here is the full text of the definition of Reform Code from the Admin dictionary:

      REFORM CODE, the Reform Code of Scn. We sent out mailings and we received
      back anything that people thought that should be corrected. This resulted in reform
      code in which the see checks were cancelled and all old folders on this have been burned
      and disconnection is cancelled as a relief to those suffering family oppression. It’s no
      longer required in SP orders and the person has to handle. The fair game law was can-
      celled and the prohibition against writing down a recording of professional materials
      was made and this was actually the extent of the Reform Code. (Ron’s Journal 1968)

  16. “Culling” Pauls folders for dirt on him to publicize? Who do they think they are kidding, with all the evidence of lying, deceit, outright criminality and using parishioners folder data against them as admitted by Tommy Davis?

    What makes them think anyone will believe them now after so much evidence of lying and criminal acts has been published world wide.

    Threatening Paul is definetly a cry for help!

    They are just confirming that one cannot trust that the pc folders are kept confidential. I wonder if all those people down at Flag getting their “quicky grades” know that their personal secrets can be revealed and used against them at any time?

    Looks to me like the IQs in Miscavige’s camp are dropping instead of rising. Why threaten to do something that will ensure no one who hears it will go to an org for auditing. Admitting to breaking the confidentiality rule after denying it for so long. Kind of dumb if you ask me.

    • This culling people’s folders for dirt is really sick, but the fact is Davey and his crew have auditors so cowed within the organization that they are willing to violate the Auditors Code is another indicator of how he has perverted Scientology!

      Me when some “Exec” “requested” that I “cull” a folder looking for dirt. I use to tell them to take a flying f__k at a donut and if they persisted I’d write a “Job Endangerment Chit” on the sleazy SOB!

      Basically what he’s done with GAT and other programs has turned many auditors into robots per the HCOB Robotism who only follow orders.

      Milgram redux as one astute poster here noted.

      To me being forced to turn over any folder data to the press or the Government would be my worst nightmare. I’d rather go to prison or be declared before stooping so low as to do that!

      What Miscavige and Tommy are doing is such a gross betrayal of the tenets of Scientology or any religion for that matter! That I’m surprised that the practice hasn’t incurred more outrage than it has!

      On the practical or technical side what PC now is going to give up their withholds willingly when they know by example that they will be used for black mail or extortion!?

      In other words he by his actions has nullified any benefit of a confessional and has totally perverted its purpose which was yes to some degree for INTERNAL security but above all and most importantly to GIVE CASE GAIN !! !

      • RJ,
        RRRRRR!! YES! DM`s betrayed that he doesn`t think Scientology works in his acts with these prior confessions. In REAL Scientology, the whole point is that a being who confronts his past misdeeds, finds the source of them, and handles it has made CASE GAIN. In fact, he has. It is over, the past, history and has nothing to do with present time life. To then deny that by throwing them back in his face is utterly opposed to the purposes of auditing and a real, Scientology, confessional. It is such a suppressive act it is unbelievable…were it not a fact that DM has done, and is continuing to do it.

        He is an anti-Scientologist. David Miscavige is a Suppressive Person. One of the very few, but he is one.

      • Lotus Miyamoto

        I like our style RJ! I feel the same way and would totally be willing to go to prison instead of violating the trust of those I audited.

        Miscavige is a very sick man. When I have thought “How could he order such a betrayal after trust.” I come up with the same conclusion. He is a very suppressive person and not one single thing he has done of does is wrong to him.

        It is so obvious. OSA should be taking him off post as we speak. OSA staff who are following his destructive orders should realize that he would do the same things to them without batting an eye lash or showing a single tear of regret. Of all people, you would think that an OSA terminal would be able to spot an SP!

      • Well put Jimbo, I couldn’t have said it better myself 🙂

      • Thank you Lotus, by the way I love the way you think too and I also love your name. Very beautiful 🙂

  17. Insanity is defined as “the overt or covert but always complex and continuous determination to harm or destroy.” — L. Ron Hubbard

    Molecule for molecule David Miscavige embodies a continuous determination to harm or destroy.

  18. John Doe, thanks for the tip. I am following up on it. I did not post your comment as don’t want to forward DM’s smear campaign. Tried to email you but it bounced.

  19. This would be a TERRIBLE move. Look at how Hollywood all took Polanski’s side recently after he was arrested for having previously admitting to drugging and essentially raping a 13 or 14 year old girl. I think they are IN FOR IT if they bring up a single thing on Haggis.

  20. Thank you Maria for your awesome post/comment.

    Keep those good references coming!

    XO

  21. Jonathon Barbera

    KSW1Fan replied to my comment: “There are great people working in the Sea Org. They give what they can and they have honest intentions. To say that they are degraded beings is a generality and causes ARCbreaks. I had great auditiors, great beings, they make what they can for the benefit of others and they are true believers.”

    The Sea Org has always been full of great people. They give what they can because they are too anxious to HELP. They give until it literally hurts and then some! (Listen to LRH’s 1958-1960 lectures on responsibility and O/Ws for all of the details.)

    Let’s raise our confront of the Sea Org itself. It’s comparable to a RPF! Compared to how most staff and public live and work, the Sea Org crew are on some elaborate RPF on all levels. Upper management terminals may no longer be in “the Hole” today but INT Base is a Hole of a bigger size whose fence spikes notoriously face inward.

    Don’t misunderstand me. I am totally in favor of the existence of the Sea Org. People need a place to go where they can serve and help and be purposeful. Degraded beings should be rehabilitated with the standard application of L. Ron Hubbard’s Scientology.

    These former Sea Org crew who walked away from David Miscavige’s suppression are on the road out of degradation.

  22. Jonathon Barbera

    Joe Howard replied to my comment: “Dude, with a shot that cold, I hope for your sake that you never run into some of the people who post on this blog.”

    I hate to be a back-seat driver, but according to the actual stats, David Miscavige has been driving the Church of Scientology bus over the side of a cliff for over 20 years.

    Perhaps my “shot that cold” is comparable to a deafening scream as the bus goes over the edge in slow motion.

    Is the driver asleep at the wheel? Has he been drinking? Someone near the steering wheel needs to wake up and take command. Not degraded command or suppressive command, as either of those will continue the bus’ slide into oblivion, but good command that steers the Church of Scientology bus back onto the proper road.

  23. Hey Marty, Do you remember when you and Greg Wilhere came back to Int from the Freewinds in the mid ’90’s, this is when I was an MAA in Gold. You and Greg trained us on how to do metered ethics interviews and interrogations that were not Sec Checks, but strictly interviews. These interviews were prepared with questions after studying a person’s ethics file along with data from a recent flap from their area. If there was a read on a question, that was taken up further until the data was gotten. After the interview, full ethics actions were taken up with that person. We didn’t do these types of metered ethics interviews until you and Wilhere came back from the Freewinds. My question for you is that this was after you had the chance to study pure LRH on your own. Were those interviews actually standard? Or was this something that DM and Wilhere wanted you to implement? Because on your return, the amount of metered investigations on base staff was like wild fire. From what I remember these interviews were based on the HCOB on Interviews and on another one where LRH talks about getting the truth out of a person being “silent.” I recall Hubbard using an example of being able to watch the needle while pointing to locations on a map and following up any reads.

    • John, good question. I need more time for complete answer, maybe a posting will do. Stay on me on this by email if you don’t see it in the next few days.

      • Thanks Marty. I know that it must be hard for you these days in your current position. I just feel that a lot of people are being given the impression that all things bad in the CoS stem only from DM, and IMO, that’s not entirely the case. Hubbard created and utilized a bunch of tech that was used to intimidate, harrass, investigate, interrogate, humiliate and control a lot of people – especially his own staff and Sea Org members. DM, yourself, Wilhere, base execs and I, utilized these techniques at the Int Base because we “had a planet to Clear,” and from what I knew were all on-policy and in-tech actions. As I worked with all the staff at the base, including DM, after leaving, I never blamed it all on you or DM. I blamed it mainly on the Source of this Tech that we were all following. But now, I see ex Int staff like yourself and a handful of others only blaming DM and the current Co$, not the Source. People like Paul Haggis and many ex members who have spoken out against Hubbard and/or Scientology have been attacked by the GO and now OSA for many, many years, long before Miscavige was even around. Although I would love to see DM and the CoS taken down, I would also like to see the disappearance of ANY of the Tech Hubbard created, or that was created in his name, damaging and harmful to other people who went against it, didn’t tow the line or didn’t follow the straignt and narrow. Anyway, it would be much appreciated if maybe you did a write-up that explained the metered ethics interviews that arrived on the scene after your return from the Freewinds and what the story was behind that. The only requirements being that the interviewer only having to have meter training. This gave DM, executives and MAA’s a lot of ammunition to intimidate staff on the base and pull overts and withholds without having to go through Tech Div or the C/S as these were all “I’m not auditing you.”

    • Mr. Peeler,
      I suppose to give you the benefit of the doubt I should ask, have you read DMSMH? If so, did you finish it? If so have you ever actually audited someone else through an engram, secondary or lock? I wait with bated breath for your reply.

      • Yes Jim, I did. Not only did I do a lot of Book 1 training, but I also trained up to Class IV. I grew up in Scientology as a child, started my first courses in 1977 and left the Sea Org from Gold in 2000. Besides being tech trained and having read all of the pre-GAT basic books, I also listened to the entire PDC lectures and several other congresses. As well, I also got myself fully hatted as both an MAA and the De-PTSer at Gold and held those posts for at least 5 years. I was in CMU/PDO when you were having troubles at the base. I believe you were either in Cine or was it Audio. But you left not long after I got to the base in 1990. I feel that my question to Marty is valid. Marty knows what I’m talking about about these metered ethics interviews. He and Greg Wilhere had us train on these. The MAAs in Gold who trained under Marty and Wilhere were myself, Gerald Duncan, Sue Hall, Malcolm Chisholm, Salvatore Meo, Mike Gilchrist and another girl named Jessica (forgot her last name). My message is not an attack on Marty, but he did bring this to the base with Wilhere all under the umbrella of it being purely LRH and in fact almost like a lost tech. The HCOB on Interviews was one of them for sure. This is not an attack on Marty, but a serious question. I hope that Marty doesn’t act like he doesn’t know what I’m talking about here. My points are valid and I’m being truthful.

      • John P,
        Thanks for your background, much appreciated. One thing I didn`t get though, was an answer to whether you have audited a person to an erasure of an engram, secondary or lock.

        I was a Cram Off at Gold before I got into the Gold Musicians. I`m curious, from that perspective, why on earth anybody would accept from either Marty or Greg W (whom I have known and trained with myself) something as being `LRH` without having the actual LRH reference there to study, duplicate, understand and apply with judgment. You see my curiousity here I hope.

      • John Peeler,
        Thank you for answering my question. I understand better the context of your questions on the interviews you were doing as well.

        What you describe is rampant, egregious violation of sundry materials. This medium is not appropriate for a thorough cramming cycle with you but, if you have someone you know that can do False Data Stripping, on a meter, for a start, I’d get together with them and do it.

        You’ve got the Tech Vols so you can restudy the real materials in a new unit of time and hopefully this will sort this out.

        Offhand, look at CS Series 78 for the ‘bypass’ of the CS on these offbeat interviews and out of session challenging of people as having wittholds.

        The ‘group bank’ melee you describe, at MCI I take it, is something else entirely, and I mean, NOT in any LRH reference anywhere. It is part of Mythscavology, not Scientology.

    • Come on John this is a typical haters line:

      “Hubbard created and utilized a bunch of tech that was used to intimidate, harrass, investigate, interrogate, humiliate and control a lot of people – especially his own staff and Sea Org members.”

      I’ve read every HCOB in the Tech Vols and haven’t found a single example of the above.

      So could you be a bit more specific like giving dates and titles to your ge4nerality.

      • martyrathbun09

        Good point RJ. I don’t know if I’ll waste any more time on this. This is like trying to argue with a guy that guns kill and not the people pulling the trigger.

      • You’re right Marty. Ron says himself that the tech ain’t perfect in HCOPL Safeguarding Technology and I guess some of it can be misapplied or altered to achieve the effect that JP claims and misconstrued to be the “intent” which is what we call Black Dianetics but almost any technology on Earth has a Dark Side to it!

      • Hey RJ and Jim, I did audit Book 1 first when I did the Essentials of Dianetics, EOD, courses back in the early 80’s and again later on the Book 1 Auditor’s Course in the late 80’s. I read DMSMH a number of times over the years. I read it and audited probably a couple hundred hours, and still today remember secondaries, locks and engrams – would still be very adept at working with a “file clerk.” Initially, when I joined staff, I wanted to be an auditor anyway.

        As far as the metered ethics interviews are concerned, one of the HCOB’s Marty and Greg had as part of the training was HCOB of 1 Apr, 1981R, INTERVIEWS, (ETHICS OFFICER/MAA section). Can be found on page 283 of Tech Vol. XVI.

        The other reference (which I’m admittedly hazy on) in which Hubbard describes putting someone on a meter (possibly for plant or infiltrator?), even if they’re silent, you can point to locations on a map while watching the needle for reads to pinpoint locations, also asking direct questions to find out if they work for the press or a government agency. I know this reference was part of that training and sorry I forgot the exact one. It’s been a while.

        The other reference included was HCOB 13 Dec, 1961, Varying Sec Check Questions, for wording and asking the interview questions.

        There were possibly other references included in this training, btu it’s been too long to remember.

        Fact of the matter is that we weren’t doing METERED ethics interviews before Marty and Greg returned from the Freewinds. There was not a specific reference on doing a “metered ethics interview” except for these COMBINED references that Marty and Greg compiled and then trained us on. These interviews were a convenient tool for DM and other execs on the base to BYPASS the Tech Div/Qual and C/S. We were pulling READING overts in these interviews so that RTC and other execs on the base could use the meter to get dirt and use it against staff on the base.

        We were taking up the data from these interviews at Perimiter Council meetings and then discussing what handlings would be done with those staff.

        Marty remembers these interviews I’m sure. My question is were these interviews actually standard or were they ordered to be done by Miscavige? I think my question is valid here in relation to other points that were brought up in context of this thread.

        You have no idea how many “crimes” were read out at staff musters and base briefings as a result of these interviews.

        I am not a hater. Myself and my family were victims of a mind control cult. I seek truth and justice just like you. I just happen to believe that it goes back much further than just DM. The GO was into some pretty bad shit as well, or it wouldn’t have been “disbanded.”

      • martyrathbun09

        All the LRH references were provided in the IG NW bulletin which was ordered written by DM, written by me, authorized for issue by DM. I took a great deal of pride in F/Ning every one of my interviews. How you all applied it is on you.

      • Thank you. Will DM’s and your IG NW bulletin on metered ethics interviews still be in use in Scientology 2.0?

        And yes, I remember, we had to F/N everything. All videod and recorded. Or we would have been in serious boiling water. Some people were RPFed for miscalling F/Ns. One miscalled F/N was a lower condition assignment. Some were even overboarded for miscalling F/N’s. Glad you took great pride in it as well.

      • martyrathbun09

        No. But, don’t know about the overboardings or an RPF assignment for it. Definitely recall assigning conditions for leaving someone keyed into something and telling them they were keyed out. It was the out ethics types who had no respect for a meter or the person in front of them that committed the most heinous overts. I guess you’ve sort of indicated which side of the line you were on.

      • I may have an issue that came from uplines to Cl V orgs on doing Ethics Interviews. I’ll see if I can dig it up.

        On your point that the genesis of the abuses didn’t start with DM, I think there is plenty of evidence that it existed in the 70’s, in the 60’s and, in a different form, in the 50’s, but not to the degree that exists now. LRH was a complex person. Seems that, even though he developed some wonderful technology, his “Mr. Hyde” threw in some curves that we are now sorting out.

      • Nomnom,
        God I’m tired of these sorts of random carps and generalities about LRH and the materials. I’m surprised to hear them from you.

      • From LRH:

        That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others;

        I always loved this part of the code of honor and it was instrumental in me writing and listening to others and their opinion s of Scn and LRH.

  24. To John Peeler and Jim Logan — obviously a button or two has been pushed –

    In any case, here’s my take —

    DM didn’t create EVERYTHING wrong with current CofS.

    For example — MANY years ago, I sat on a comm ev with G. Wilhere at Flag — we were basically ordered to find the interested party guilty by a very senior exec (back then Int management was at Flag – not having left for “over the rainbow” until later) and to declare him.

    Everyone towed the line — and to my credit (I’m usually not so brave) I said — hold on. This guy hasn’t done a damn thing wrong except having left the SO previously he isn’t respected etc etc and an easy target.

    G. Wilhere changed sides and one by one we found the interested party not guilty.

    My point — because we are all painfully human — our ability to be brave, to see clearly gets skewered by our own patterns … that day, I just happened to show some bravery —

    Eventually I left the SO … and eventually left scientology and ONLY recently have started to see — wow — a great deal of what I did learn from LRH was extremely valuable and has helped me in my life journey for truth and helping others.

    In other words — don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    WH

    • Word of wisdom.

    • WH,
      I have experienced, on various flows, the exact type of Comm Ev, `give him a trial and hang him`sort of thing. I appreciate very much your anecdote and take from it that it is individuals, having the courage to observe and say what they have observed, that makes for better justice.

      Thank you!

      P.S. I wasn`t aware, and still don`t consider, it was a `button`pushed in either JP`s comm, and as my reply, pushed back. Maybe I`m in need of better internet comm skills. Jonathan B and I both are working on it. (Big Smiley face here.)

  25. Jonathon Barbera

    RJ replied to my comment: “Personally, I was never in the SO, but I worked along side many SO members and they were for the most part all dedicated Scientologists!”

    I was in the Sea Org and saw it from three different organizations.

    The level of degradation varied from individual to individual. I do not doubt that these were dedicated Scientologists or that they were determined to help. I am most certainly not characterizing them as bad people or whatever.

    The reality, if one is willing and able to look, is that the Sea Org specifically targets degraded beings as recruits and then exploits and abuses those people until they blow or manage to route out.

    David Miscavige is running the Sea Org comparable to a McDonald’s. So many of these Sea Org recruits, in my day, were brand-new Scientologists who hadn’t started the Bridge and would eventually leave without getting very far on it. With their freeloader’s debts and possible declares, they are then barred from coming back as public to pay for their own training or services.

    Planetary clearing won’t get very far if the people hired to safeguard the technology aren’t allowed to use it.

    There are people who live and work in far more degraded conditions than even the Sea Org crew. Perhaps when the church is fixed up, the Sea Org can help those people.

    • Yes but this doesn’t change the fact that when the Sea Project was established and Ron requested the help of dedicated Scientologists, that as they say “many were called and only a few were chosen.”

      I wouldn’t call Mary Sue, Quentin, Arthur, Diana, Suzette, Marty, Jim, Mike, Dorothy, Dan, Don, Fred or any of the many people that I personally know or have met to be degraded!

      Even the more recent bunch that I helped supervise through their Exec Series Quals and verified their recs are DBs.

      Nor do I even think that Guillaume, Lyman, Norman or Heber are DBs. They are stuck in a situation of the Devil you do is better than the Devil you don’t!

      Please stop missing the forest for the trees, Jonathan the main problem with many of the current recruits is unhattedness. They are unhatted and off ballance. I am not an policy maven like many of my esteemed colleagues on this board but there are policies on how a false PTS condition can be created by unhattedness and I do no technically that a person can be made to seem “degraded” by a Continuous MWH or Overt situation!

  26. “This is like trying to argue with a guy that guns kill and not the people pulling the trigger.”

    The VM’s participate in the gun buyback program alongside local police depts, which is victim disarmament and by every study ever causes more death and violence than it prevents. I was recruited for this by my org’s VM I/C and refused. A small point but worth mentioning because it’s not effective safepointing with cops (uniformly pro second amendment in every survey ever done), or with the community. Also I’m sure LRH didn’t want the VM’s to be doing this. Assists was the central point to VM’s from what I know. People inherently know gun grabbing VM’s are helping make a 1.1 society.

  27. Jim, I understand what you mean by generalities, but we can’t whitewash it and risk doing a Tommy Davis. How can we prevent future abuses if we don’t confront the full history? The first hand stories about LRH from people who worked directly with him are impossible to ignore. This is a very interesting set:
    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/miller/interviews/

    • I wouldn’t consider Russell Miller a reliable source as a “historian” or “biographer”. Here’s what Hayden B. Peake writing for CSI sums up one of his later efforts ‘Codename TRICYCLE: The True Story of the Second World War’s Most Extraordinary Double Agent.’

      “Finally, the careless errors and many undocumented comments place the book in the easy-to-read-but-of-limited-scholarly-value category.”

      https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no1/html_files/bookshelf_10.html

      I tried reading his book “Behind the Lines” supposedly an oral “history” of the OSS and the SOE and gave up in disgust because it was so disjointed (the oral histories were good but the way the writer’s presented them could not be considered objective in any stretch of imagination, verging on adulation!) and read Richard Harris Smith’s ‘OSS:
      The Secret History of America’s First Central Intelligence Agency’ instead.

      He may be considered a good journalist but as far being as a “historian” or “biographer”. He enters his own opinions and bias on the subject too often and doesn’t seem too interested in the veracity of the source or corroborating his information which is obvious when you read ‘Bare Faced Messiah’ or for that matter anything else he’s written.

  28. Declaring apostates and employing Fair Game policy to harrass and intimidate them should be prosecuted as a Hate Crime. It is a Fatwa of sorts.

  29. Jim, Marty, RJ,

    A different viewpoint, partially spurred by BFG’s book and Marty’s review thereof, possibly even in defense of the perspective of John Peeler and others:

    People who learned of “scientology” in DMs church, especially in the last 10-15 years, including getting training more recently, don’t have the same viewpoint on Hubbard and the tech, their spirit and function that we may.

    For example, let’s take two crises; the mud slide at int base, (mid/late 90s?) and the org fire, LA area, 70s. Mud slide, everyone was assigned treason by DM and essentially treated as a criminal; they not only pulled it in, they were responsible for it and punished en mass mercilessly. The fire in LA, yeah it was investigated, but LRH personally made sure that every sea org member was compensated for their personal losses.

    The Scientology younger people have grown up in and learned about is very different to Hubbard’s church.

    The whole thing about black scientology, heavy sec checking, “inval and eval processing” is all younger staff know today. They didn’t have the comparison, or comparable data point of being able to study unadulterated LRH.

    I think we have to have a little more compassion for these people, many had the same purpose to help, but had their legs cut out with not only corruption of the tech, but reversal of the spirit of the subject.

  30. Mark, This kind of stuff has been going on for many many years. It’s a given that if you are influential enough and speak out, you will get harassed. Some have beeen harassed because of the job they had in the SO. Some who are knowledgeable of things the general public isn’t. Whatever the reason, the harassment is sometimes noisy sometimes not. The list of names is probably a mile long. Haggis hit them where they hurt most- in the media and in their reputation in Hollywood. Your naivate surprises me. Perhaps you need to get with Mike Rinder for a sitdown on the laundrylist of OSA’s dirty secrets .

    • Read the blog – there has NEVER been a case on the set of facts I am pointing out. Your arrogance surprises me.

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