Today is open forum for discussion of the new St Pete Times Series “Chased by their Church”, which can be found at http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/
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Martyrathbun09's Blog 
OMG it just keeps on coming.What is so nuts is that the COS would even stoop so low as to make less of its top and trusted people. Their true colors are so showing. Every newspaper story, radio story, tv story just makes them look worse.
DM and TD just cease!
I’ll say publicly what I said to you privately, Marty.
Just – thank you.
And thanks also to all who stepped up. The truth may not be pretty, but it’s beautiful at the same time.
DM & TD really need to decide whether Marty is a “lunatic” from the “fringe” or a “kingpin” trying to wrest control of the organization. He can’t be both fellas.
Thanks for telling us how it was done, Marty.
I appreciate the information you gave so far about how you and Mike used to handle critics from your positions in the church. And I also like the way you are telling it – to the whole world.
You are being heard and understood.
Please continue…
Another GREAT article by St. Petersburg Times.
It is getting better and better every day.
Thank you Marty! 🙂
Wow Miscavige and his lil’ dawg Tommy must be smokin’ the tall grass instead of merely running in it or maybe it’s really acid in their electric Koolaid!
They used the same tactics they tried last time to discredit you guys!
OMG!!!!
Stop the presses!
Bruce Hines had premarital sex and heterosexual thoughts!
Man, Tommy and Davy are so outta PT they think they’re living in Victorian England!!!!
Marty how dare you call those squirrels in the Church squirrels!
Or merely suggesting that we’re a “silent” majority.
Shame on you!
Don’t underestimate yourself ’cause you’ve given us a voice!
“The Church is not just expanding, it is exploding!”
A line they keep repeating but everyone who has left with knowledge of it keeps denying.
“…it is, in fact, the attacker who by his or her own actions causes others to desire to sever the connection”
Another lie that’s been exposed more times than there are decimals of π, right on this very blog e.g.
“…Miscavige is the most famous name in Scientology and to defame him is to defame the character of the religion”
Miscavige = Scientology = CoS. What you fail to realise is that in the minds of those who have left, you no longer speak for the religion, and have no right to define its character, any more than a pedophilic priest has a right to define catholicism to an abused altar boy.
“It is offensive in the extreme for you to denigrate a religious service by attempting to redefine Scientology confessionals as something used to punish”
Then how much more offensive is it for you to use them as such?
Tommy Davis is stuck in his own manufactured version of reality. It is one thing to stick to a system of beliefs that science or serious analysis has little to say about, but when you make up a web of blatant lies to protect your own image, it becomes impossible to back down without destroying that image. TD is apparently determined to stay in this prison he built for himself.
As long as there are honest people willing to point out the real proof and share their experiences, they can never win, and are damned forever into being held up as a warning example of peoples capacity for self-delusion.
Very thoughtful comment. It occurred to me that that line “The Church is not just expanding, it is exploding!”, is sort of a Freudian slip. It is exploding all right. And you are damn right it is DM that lit the fuse.
Or another take is TD misspoke and in actuality “the Church….is IMploding”.
Are members more extroverted or INtroverted, more held and allowed to look outwardly (ie., the many internet sites that challenge the management’s positions) or stifled and restricted to only the INner propaganda and only INwardly looking for answers?
They’ve already woven the hairball of lies. They can’t stop now or people will know they were lying all along.
It’s only downhill from here.
“the hairball of lies” – truth rules, that’s a powerful image you created there. 🙂
Another brilliant set of articles up today. There’s one on Pat Broeker that isn’t linked from the main site with the others: http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1048116.ece
Marty, I noted an ongoing inaccuracy that you might want to spell out next time you talk to these guys — at least I think it is. In the story (and in other media reports) sec checks were referred to as “a type of auditing” when in fact they are pure interrogation, and are therefore not confidential.
I believe they’re even preceded by the statement, “I’m not auditing you.” So any dirt gleaned there or in ethics interviews or O/W writeups can be considered non-confidential. Isn’t that right? I bring this up because it leaves Tommy a little wiggle room to claim that they church doesn’t divulge secrets disclosed in auditing. Please correct me if I’m mistaken; I could be inaccurate myself.
Eldon, good point. I don’t know what else I can add to what I said in a segment of video’d interview I did for the 21 June series (still available on the SP Times website). I spoke about the the unfortunate gray area between confessional and sec checking. Please have a look at that; it is the best explanation of the problem I can offer.
Although sec checking and confessionals are “different”, the confidentiality of confessionals has been violated and abused (as well) – starting as early as Integrity Processing, which was AUDITING.
Ethics files are confidential and subject to the Priest/Penitent privilege. Ref Scientology Policy Directive 118, 26 July 85 Labelling of Technical and Ethics Files.
Dave Miscavige is saying some of the dark operations were not sanctioned by him. In the case of the Miss Bloodybutt attack on me personally, DM is setting the stage for Mike Rinder to own it.
I hope Mike speaks out, and says something like “I didn’t think of it…DM did.”
I agreed with what you said about emotional leverage. I had no idea how far they would go to try to bring me back when I left and was quite concerned about that. Numerous people DID come to my place afterwards. It’s really deplorable that they can instill fear in people. Some church.
I think OSA’s going to keep themselves in check a bit because even though I’ve never seen an OSA checksheet, I’m sure there’s no clay demo for keeping an SP in power. Plus there’s so many of us, like 50 or 100 comment fairly regularly and it’s just getting started. And lots more just read so I wouldn’t worry about it. Anybody gets messed with, just write a big report about it on this site and then do a camera interview and get it posted. Then contact SP times and the AP for info for a future story, even if it’s a small incident.
Handle the hell out of it.
This is getting too big now, they’ll back off.
As with the previous series, the official response from Tommy D was considerably more entertaining, and enlightening in its own way, than the main article itself. “Rathbun is a card-carrying member of the lunatic fringe” is the thrust of Tommy’s defence…”It is now blatantly clear that Rathbun has altered his delusion from “taking over the Church” to destroying the Church”. “Not only are things in the Church better these days since your sources have been gone, they are sensational! The Church is not just expanding, it is exploding! Mr. Miscavige is the driving force behind the worldwide expansion of Scientology. He works for and answers to Scientology’s millions of parishioners and serves their interests by implementing Mr. Hubbard’s plans and strategies, while devoting every spare moment to the restoration of Mr. Hubbard’s technology and its dissemination to the public. It is his far-reaching vision and unrelenting dedication which have brought the Church so far and so fast. He redefines the term “religious leader.”
I mean do you laugh or cry? The idea that Marty could destroy the current C of S more effectively than DM and his mouthpiece are doing themselves is itself laughable. While Marty, Geir et al simply hold up a mirror to the C of S as it currently operates and say “take a look”, Tommy screeches himself into being a guidon for the anti-scientology camp. Sanity, reason and love will prevail, the strength of the Independent movement is adequate testimony to that. Looks like the battle may be shorter than we imagined.
Tnmn, Your analysis is insightful. I’m thinking about starting up and Oped page and having you as a regular.
Worldwide expansion? Gee, they’re already claiming 12 million. What will the next imaginary figure be? They recently claimed 45,000 members in France, which is about ten times the maximum credible membership.
I mean, what planet does Tommy think he’s on?
“while devoting every spare moment to the restoration of Mr. Hubbard’s technology and its dissemination to the public.” ????
Perhaps when Mr Miscavige releases information as to his case level and current training level, this notion could be accurately evaluated. But if the rumors are true that he has been bogged on ot7 for over a decade and his highest training is class 4…….
I’m thinking restoration is not the right word …
We have been reading your posts and links for almost a week now and are having huge LFBDs. What a relief to know that our suspicions of many years are, in fact, true! We left 15 years ago after many years observing what appeared to be off-policy actions but with no way of dealing with it.
We are so very grateful to you, Marty and all others sharing here for these truthful accounts. We are true followers of the LRH tech. That will always be ours forever!!
It is great to hear that. This is what it all is fundamentally about. Kudos should go to the other 17 or 18 or 19 (or whatever it is now) who have spoken out. Factually, they had a lot more to lose than I ever did.
Marty–possible for you to elaborate on the veracity, or lack thereof, in this excerpted statement?
“Never once in the 25 years I have performed these functions have I spoken with David Miscavige, the Chairman of the Board of Religious Technology Center, regarding investigations or investigators, nor have I had any written communications with him on the use or purpose of investigations or private investigators, (sic) I have no reason to believe he has or had any involvement with these functions.” Kendrick L. Moxon, church lawyer; from affidavit attached as part of the 10 page response from Tommy Davis to latest SPT article
Click to access Attachment2.pdf
It is probably true. Moxon is clever. In this case, the omissions. Moxon nor Abelson ever “ran” any investigators either. All they did was hire them. Then they’d send them down the hall to get their marching orders, and their day to day operations directives from their OSA intelligence branch handlers. All of Moxon’s and Abelson’s hiring procedure – along with “don’t do anything illegal” briefing – was created by me. It is right out of Godfather I, II, and III – making an illegitimate operation go legit without really changing the heart of the operation. DM always wanted to be Michael Corleone. The sad truth is, he turned out to be Tony Montana.
Marty — Although not directly running the PIs, would not the OSA intelligence branch handlers after directing the investigators, then write DRs or debriefs or whatever and then forward to DM? Then DM would via someone, get info to Moxon or Abelson with what he wanted done, they in turn go back to OSA handlers who then directly run the next phase and so on.
In doing this all indirectly, I can see how Moxon’s statement would have elements of an “acceptable truth”.
You are right. Except execution would NOT go through the attorneys – it would go direct to OSA intelligence and direct from there to the PIs. See my earlier post – Moxon and Abelson never executed an investigation in their lives – they only hired the clowns to give the operation the patina legitimacy.
Dear Marty,
Several commenters have mentioned the appalling lack of CofS transparency as contributing to DM’s ability to pervert policy and destroy the Church from within.
In an email exchange with Heber Jentzsch last year, I suggested that he follow the lead of other successful executives who handle complaints from customers by responding online with the truth from a safe point, as in a corporate blog with moderated comments.
I had observed that the Church was failing to communicate and that their customer base was “connected up and comparing notes.”
The Church was asking parishioners to host websites with good news, but there was no live communication from the Church on areas of interest.
It is complete folly for any company or church or political administration to think that they can “manage” the news. Those days are long over.
Any blogger with a knowledge of the communication cycle, ARC, and the Tone Scale can reach hundreds of thousands of people overnight.
If the message has enough truth in it, it can make a right indication for almost everyone that reads it.
Your blogging and the comments I have read have started to run out the group engram that DM has laid in on the Church of Scientology.
I have been a professional Scientologist for 33 years and this is one of the most encouraging developments I have seen in terms of opening the door to getting the Church back on Source.
Please continue!
David, Thank you. It is encouraging to hear that veterans like yourself are so interested in getting the Church back on source. Please continue, right back at ya.
David,
I’ll second Marty, it’s very good to hear from you. My take on a lot of what’s going on here is that the truth is being viewed and so all the lies, that which came after, are blowing off. Scientology works. Scientologists are in the vast majority, like most beings, well-intentioned and they care about their fellow man, their families, their neighborhoods, their country and planet and all life.
That’s evident in the people talking in the St. Pete Times articles. This isn’t ‘get Dave’. It’s remove the distractions from the basic purposes of Scientology and Scientologists.
I’m ecstatic to see so many good people speak up.
Thanks Marty, and all those who spoke out for these interviews. The Church’s “strategy” of simply denying everything, asserting the fiction of their imaginary “expansion” and attacking critics is not working and is falling very flat. Their only hope of dealing with this would be to admit wrongdoing and institute real reforms – two things Miscavige is incapable of doing.
Fishdad, I think you are absolutely right that the crux of the problem is that Miscavige thinks he must be absolutely right, and anyone who doesn’t agree with every atrocity of his must be absolutely wrong. It was well put by one Jeff Hawkins in an AP story that has hit the wires this morning:
http://www.wpix.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-rel-scientology-woes,0,6183895.story
Hey Marty!
Did you read also in the article that Scientology’s on the books?
That’s the Vegas Sports Book!
They’re taking odds right now on which celeb is gonna blow Miscavigology next 🙂
So before I call my bookie. Who would you put your money on?
RJ, I did see that. It is uncanny how accurate they are in my opinion.
Wow, Marty, where to start on this veritable cornucopia of ammo the church is enthusiastically providing to help us expose their criminality and continue this policing action;
Tommy Davis in the Church’s 10 day response states that Miscavage is being attacked because he is the most famous name in Scientology, sorry LRH. Visualize this dialogue to an old Bruce Lee martial arts movie with lip sinking and facial expressions way out of sync: Shaolin master Hubbard … you have lost your position of respect and strength and power in my temple. I have nicer clothes than you, fly only in private jets which you never did, buy new cars where you bought used, live mansions where you only lived in houses, in fact I destroyed your home, the one in which your family and staff last saw you, building a 35 million dollar McMansion in my own image but only half as nice as the $75,000,000 office I built for myself next door. My powers are greater because I get thousands of people 6 times a year to show up at multi million dollar supreme ruler Hitlarean backdrop events far beyond anything you had the audacity to do! Now, Master Hubbard, Master no more, the little Napoleon that harassed and degraded your family, becomes the new big leader (in fancy elevator shoes) my minions now tell the world through the media that I, DAVID MISCABAGE, NOT YOU are the most important AND FAMOUS name in Scientology. Hubbard, Master no more, bow before your new ruler!
You are right; Moxon is quite clever in his wording of his affidavit. But he and all others have certainly boxed themselves in corners with these affidavits, because those innumerous people in the know that have left the church, given the opportunity through some suit or other mechanism, know how to use these affidavits to perjure themselves, every one of these contains lies or mistruths that could lead to perjury of every person making them. That is why DM is having everyone else make them and refuses them himself, he considers all his staff expendable, cannon fodder, and will sacrifice them to save himself.
Forced confessions on leaving staff, these deserve more attention. Most of these “confessions” were not written by the people whose names they bear, and whose signatures they carry. It goes like this; after having been emotionally and mentally beat down for weeks or months, you are finally given a glimmer of hope of leaving, though you have had to agree and confess to being scum of the earth to get there. OSA staff have been combing through your PC folder, ethics files, confessional files, etc, to find all your juicy personal peccadillo’s. Perhaps you hugged and cuddled and slept with your pet bunny rabbit when you were 13 years old … you have compulsions towards bestiality. You found $20 on the pavement and didn’t turn it in to lost and found … you STOLE money. These drafted confessions are handed to you to sign, normally with 3-5 people present, security personnel, sometimes an attorney, your sec checker, you sign them with a video camera running and to statements being repeated to you that you are signing this without force or coercion of your own free will and guilt because you are a worthless piece of shit and the church is magnanimous and great. Those strong enough to fight back, like Jackson, saying that points are not true or out of context, may get some sort of concession or softening of some of the terms. First they have to survive the attorney or golden “official” leaving the room, and the sec checker or security personnel, or whoever yelling and screaming foul obscenities and threats trying to force you to sign. If you finally agree, the attorney comes back into the room, security puts a new tape in the video recorder, and you are asked again to sign this confession and state that you are doing so on your own free will without any threat or coercion. All of this being done behind several layers of security and locked doors so you know you can’t leave without signing it, you won’t be allowed. By the point someone is here, and perhaps by design, they are so beat down, you don’t even know what you are signing (you don’t get a copy), and don’t care, because the only thing you see or care about is getting out side of the building and obtaining some measure of freedom and space, while being allowed to talk to your Scientology friends and family.
There is just too much exciting stuff here!
Friend, Thanks for pointing out the most significant utterance in the ten page diatribe, “…Mr. Miscavige is the most famous name in Scientology…” As far as I am concerned, you can trash everything I, or Rinder, or anyone else for that matter has said, that one statement says it all. It is like the rapper Nas said about the Hip Hop genre (which started as socially conscious street poetry) when it became bastardized into promotion of bling, greed, misogyny, and violence: Hip Hop is dead. In the Church of Scientology, the subject has died. DM pronounced it dead by penning those words in Tommy’s letter. And believe me, I know Miscavige far better than even he knows himself, he dictated those words. And he is deadly serious as to their veracity – in his criminal mind.
When I was in the Army in the early 60’s stationed in Hawaii I was involved in intense training getting ready for the build up of the Vietnam war. I spent one week in POW training. I was introduced to brainwashing techniques perfected by the North Koreans who used brain washing with great success on our POW’s during the Korean conflict in the 50’s. These techniques were passed on to the North Viet Cong to use in the Hanoi POW camps. Senator John McCain can tell you how effective these techniques work.
Following my 3 year stint in the Army I wrote a college paper proving brainwashing techniques used by the North Koreans in the Korean confilct were explained in George Orwell’s 1984. Orwell was a student of Ivan Pavlov the Rusian who under Lenin’s boot was forced to do research on how to control the masses.
I was able to secure well researched booklets from the U.S. Airforce detailing and supporting my theory that the Koreans did not invent brain washing. It was the Rusians.
I live in Clearwater so when the St. Pete Times Sunday edition hit my front door today and I saw on the upper fold with LRH’s photo complete with his HCO Policy Letter of 7 December 1976 and the main headline: CHASED BY THEIR CHURCH, I poured by self a cup of coffee read the new “Inside Scientolgy” article.
After finishing all I could think about for the next 4-5 hours of how senior management in the COS is using “BRAINWASHING” to control Sea Org members. I am not an auditor and not a COS techie so I’m unable to give you exact data. I went to Google and typed in “Brainwashing Techniques” and read a short article that has a list of brainwashing techniques. You may want to take a few minutes to read this list at this link:
http://www.heart-2-heart.ca/men/page3.html
There is an old saying that goes something like this: “If it smells like a rose and looks like a rose, then it is a rose.
Treatment of Sea Org members wanting to leave the Sea Org, looks and smells like “BRAINWASHING” to me.
Jack, thank you so much for your scholarship. This is what I have been trying to communicate as the practice of Black Dianetics. If you listen to the early fifties lectures LRH was quite aware of this brainswashing technology that was going on, and he said it is the reverse of Dianetics, hence the term Black Dianetics. In South Texas we say “if it looks like a javalina (a wild pig), and it smells like a javalina, chances are its a javalina.”
Excellent link, UFN!
Very well done.
And thank you Marty for posting it and allowing your readers to learn about the technology of brainwashing.
Whether certain techniques in Scientology were designed for that purpose or not, certain Scientology techniques have definitely been used for the purpose of brainwashing Scientologists in the Church.
I am so glad you are allowing this to be discussed.
Again, thank you.
Great comment. What is most ironic (if not somewhat forgotten) is that LRH wrote a “Brainwashing” Manual back in 1955, and had its authorship “assigned” to the communists. It is a fascinating piece to read, in light of what transpired, as it truly was the template for Sea Org abusive practices, and current managements “Reverse Scientology”.
See http://www.anti-scientologie.ch/brainwashing-manual.htm
Wow is that canard still quacking!
There at least a half a dozen people who claim to have authored the “Brainwashing Manual” formally known as “Psychopolitics”.
Here’s a later versions:
http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/brainwsh.shtml
Also for those who don’t know who Beria was he headed the NKVD under Stalin which later became the OPG and the KGB after his death.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YYZNIXQz-9sC&dq=Beria&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=9saN7TsC7_&sig=85tzGmA3U-_Clin6hh9b62abKQI&hl=en&ei=jwPuSpLZAYLmtgOS5cgI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Tom,
Yes, the Brainwashing Manual. This is part of the datum that if one has the knowledge of something, thorough knowledge of it, then he is far less likely to be the adverse effect of it. That point is often missed in the release of that manual.
UFN you are spot on with your assessment of the situation, there is also additional information of these techniques being further developed by CIA, such as in the KUBARK CI Interrogation Manual and related docs.
Here’s is what one of the authors of the manual says:
“the threat of coercion usually weakens or destroys resistance more effectively than coercion itself. The threat to inflict pain, for example, can trigger fears more damaging than the immediate sensation of pain.”
The whole manual is available at the following link:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/
Hi,
Just wanted to add one thought in relation to the “gray” area of ethics interviews and CofS release of ethics information to the media. Just because it’s “I”m not auditing you”, and is used in ethics handlings does not mean it is not “Confidential” information and can be given to anyone! Even by CofS admission in our legal cases, they refused to hand over our ethics files because they are “Confidential”. And yet in one single stroke CofS has shown that they will use the information they have on individuals as they see fit, and as it serves their purposes in attempting to discredit… I don’t think anyone reacts to this with anything other than absolute disgust at the levels they have shown they will stoop to…
Thanks Claire. That really puts their duplicity into focus.
And it is an honor to have you weighing in here. We’d love to hear from you more often.
I second that 🙂
A very insightful observation, Claire.
Also I’d love to see post more on this forum as well.
Claire,
There’s another aspect of this that is a fact. In Scientology when something is done and handled, it should be just that. “Use” of somebody’s confessions isn’t part of Scientology. The practice denies the efficacy of the material. It shows DM actually doesn’t consider that Scientology actually works.
It’s invalidative of one’s gains. It invalidates the subject. NO wonder he has so much trouble: he doesn’t think Scientology works. Worse, he’s terrified it just might. That’s why we’re so ‘scary’. WE KNOW IT DOES.
Thank you Jim, thank you Claire, thank you, thank you.
Details found only in my ethics file were used to humiliate me in front of the entire Int Base one Saturday nite in 1990 by DM himself. I was shocked on many levels, first that he even knew I existed on the base (being a very low level fish at Gold). My second thought was how could he possibly have known this??!!?? That evening was then immediately proceeded by a CommEv the following week that put me on the RPF, not for being downstat on post, but for behavior with my boyfriend, and not even for that, just for the fact that our stories revealed in sec checking did not match!?!?!?!
Ethics files, SecChecking, Confessionals none of it was confidential…While on the RPF a security guard nattered to me about the sexual contents of a fellow RPRers Ethics file and SecChecking. I was horrified that someone charged with keeping confidential materials confidential would commit such a heinous offense, what his purpose could have been in doing so, was also totally unclear to me, I left the area fast enough not to have to find out…
I am bothered that public Scientologists are apparently to accept the word of Int Mgmt without verification or examination. Tommy states in the article “The Church is not just expanding, it is exploding”. Also reference the recent Freedom magazine article stating “David Miscavige at the helm of Scientology’s explosive growth”.
Understandably there is distrust between some Scientologists and their Church. The Church, however, can easily release the long-term vital statistics of the Church to help rectify that mistrust. Just show us the ‘explosive growth’ that is happening under the current Church, with verifiable stats.
And is this the ‘enemy line’ to ask for such verification? Not according to Ron. In Data Series 12 ‘How to Find and Establish an Ideal Scene’ (HCOPL 5 July 1970) LRH states: “Statistics are the only sound measure of any production or any job or any activity. The moment that one goes into any dependence on opinion, he goes into quicksand and will see too late, the fatal flaw in restoring anything”
And “Opinion, reports, subject to outpoints as they almost always are, seldom tell one more than somebody else’s prejudices or his efforts to cover or failures to observe….The statistic, guarded against false reports and verified, is a clean statement not as subject to outpoints as other types of statements”.
Is this such an unreasonable request? Am I an enemy because I ask for verification, not opinion or PR?
2nd question is this quote from Tommy “the realization of the goal set by the Founder to create Churches of Scientology that are a physical embodiment of Scientology policy and technology.”
The only policy I know about this is Data Series 40 (HCOPL 12 March 1975) ‘The Ideal Org’. The only reference in this Policy is “It would have enough space in which to train, process and administrate without crowding’, and ‘It would be clean and attractive enough not to repel its public’. Does anyone know other LRH policy that spoke directly to Ideal Org buildings being physical embodiments?
Thanks for introduction of rationality. No, you are not an SP for asking or looking, you are more a Scientologist than those who would castigate you for doing so, IMHO.
UnD said: “Understandably there is distrust between some Scientologists and their Church. The Church, however, can easily release the long-term vital statistics of the Church to help rectify that mistrust. Just show us the ‘explosive growth’ that is happening under the current Church, with verifiable stats.”
Interesting what’s being asked here are stat graphs for verification of the purported reality of expansion. I have to laugh and add some levity in all the heavy, serious lying and flying accusations to and fro. When I read this above paragraph about demanding stats, it reminds me of the growing demands that a certain executive in the government produce a valid vault copy of a birth certificate. If you substitute “citizens” for “Scientologists” and “government” for “Church” in the quote, you’ll get my drift.
Those making demands for the BC production are called “birthers”; so shall we term the stats demanders….”graphers”? Just keeping it light. Heck, if you take the world too seriously, the world will end up taking you!
And my observation is Marty, et. al. are showing a spirit of play in all of this…a lightness of being that is just not coming across from the opposite side. Keep talking and smiling you guys!
Well, here is an observation from the opening of the “Ideal Org” building in DC this weekend. I counted 480 chairs set up. I would say at the peak they had maybe 1000 people there, but over half of them were from out of town, SO, Gold, etc. So not a good showing of ‘expansion’ for one of the oldest fields in the history of Scn. The Golden Era sound guys took a page from the NFL playbook, and fed pre-recorded crowd noise through the sound system at 3 different points in the event. It was quite noticable. DM’s speech was a little under 10 minutes, I would say, and vapid. There should be a vid of it up soon. As a point of comparison, when we did the Int Mgmt Event in 86, I think it was, at the Sheraton Hotel, with Guiallame, Heber et al, we pulled in 1200 from the local field.
There was a “leak” posted of an e-mail sent out to Scngsts asking them to go to DC for the opening. The stated goal in that e-mail was 5000. (http://forums.whyweprotest.net/282-usa-east-coast/halloween-ideal-org-opening-dc-postgame-55564/#post1049609)
They did not even come close to that.
This section of the e-mail is not only paranoid, but just plain pitiful:
“In the face of our greatest expansion in history, and our release of the Marketing of Madness documentary, we have just exposed our enemies down to the very core of their Suppressive Acts, and enraged the suppressive forces of evil. They are now going berserk – and it is imperative we band together as a group and expand like never before!”
Would anyone fall for that kind of hyperbole who wasn’t severely brainwashed?
Here’s what I said in another forum:
Read Tommy Davis’ reply. Will somebody please get him in a straitjacket or at least cut off the electricity to his computer before he embarrasses himself and his beloved ecclesiastic church even further.
Marty, I believe you when you say this rant was dictated by DM. That gives a new perspective for me. WOW. If it wasn’t that I have loved ones close to him it would be funny.
hi Marty…
our hearts are soaring …
wishing you peace and a some family time today..
all out love
nate and mona
Here is an a propos quote from LRH, 6 June 1955, What Scientology Is Doing:
“I would be a very sad man to realize after years of work that we had created not a greater freedom in the society but a stronger more powerful organization.
As I look into the future, I see that we are handling here, material of a potential control and command over mankind which must not be permitted at any time to become the monopoly or the tool of the few to the danger and disaster of the many.
I believe that the freedom of the material which we know and understand is guaranteed only by the lightness of organization, a maximum of people, good training, reliable, sound relay of information. And if we can’t do these things, sooner or later the information which we hold will become the property of an untrustworthy few. This I am sure, because it has always happened this way…”
(ht: thetagal on esmb)
Great quote – the sentiment is repeated in lectures of the time period.
In the past I have brought up how the actions of COS & OSA as directed by DM are directly taken from the Apparatus in LRH’s Mission Earth series (particularly the earlier volumes). Well, apparently they are applying the books in chronological order because the last two weeks (Nightline, response to SP Times) have been straight out of the last two volumes of Mission Earth. In these last two volumes the narrator changes from an Apparatus (intelligence) officer describing his dastardly deeds to a “journalist” chronicling the story by following the exploits of public relations man J. Walter Madison who was hired by the Apparatus villain to destroy the reputation of the hero. David Miscavige is the Apparatus officer who has sent out Tommy Davis the PR man to smear the reputation of the loyal officer (there’s a rank DM knows about betraying) Marty Rathbun (and the rest of the reformers). The only thing is, in the book Madison the PR man is COMPLETELY INEPT and it backfires. Sound familiar to Tommy Davis’ attempts? If I hadn’t given the set to my friend when I finished it I would be giving you all the direct quotes.
The larger point is this, 2009 is not the late ’80’s/early ’90’s and Marty is not Pat Broeker or David Mayo. The Internet has laid bare the crimes of David Miscavige not for haters by haters, but for Scientologists by Scientologists. Marty, Steve, Mike & Amy don’t have to run to lawyers for defense because they are defended by us, the people with allegieance to L. Ron Hubbard & his principles.
So I want to say this directly to Tommy Davis. You are the first mate on a sinking ship with a mad captain. When it sinks he will jump on you and use you as a flotation device until you drown. There is still one life boat left, I suggest you use it.
The Church of Scientology has always had abusive policies, even before Miscavige. Do independant Scientologist’s still follow all LRH teachings?
There are extensive discussions on that score in earlier posts and comments – I think around mid to late September.
I think that the vital factor to wake up Scientologists is the real stats.
Marty, is it possible for you to have somebody
, who is an Ex-SO and knows the real exact stats,
speak out publicly in front of camera about the details ?
MGW, we all need to take a measure of responsibility. I have publicly in front of cameras spoke about what I know about the stats, and more than a dozen have followed me. Now, why don’t you mosey on down to your nearest org and count bodies. If you are impressed, don’t bother listening to us.
I’ve recently done a stat analysis from the completions lists of the Church’s
mags: “Freewinds”, “Source”, “Advance!”, “The Auditor”, “Celebrity” and local
church mags.
I concentrated on “Clears made” and “OT VIIIs made”.
In the 1988-1991 period, the Church (internationally) was making
between 400-600 Clears per year. Over the last 20 years, that number has been
trending down, and in the last three years, the Church has been making between
150 – 250 Clears per year. It’s about a 2/3 drop in the last 20 years. In 2008, there
were 165 Clears made.
For OT VIIIs, the drop is about 1/2 in the last 15 years. In the mid to late 90s, the
Church was making about 400 OT VIIIs per year on average. Over the last
15 years, it’s dropped to about 1/2 that, and is now in the 200 per year range.
In 2008, there were 158 OT VIIIs made.
Per the Church’s own published completions numbers over the last 20
years, the Church’s key stats are down.
Margeret, many thanks. If you put these into graph form it looks more like a Danger going into Non-Ex rather than Emergency. How accurate are these stats?
TNM,
The OT VIII numbers are highly accurate, as they are based on Freewinds
numbers, and all mags were available and consulted.
The Clears numbers are based on Flag, ASHO, AOLA, CC Int and the
Class IV Orgs. I would give those stats perhaps a +/- 10% accuracy.
The Clears numbers from Europe, AOSH UK and ANZO have not been fully
collected yet over the last twenty five years, but estimates and extrapolations
were done based on a subset of numbers that were available.
So glad to hear that David Miscavige is now the most famous name in Scientology…Who was that Hubbard bloke again?
Scie-no-mo you make a good point. In fact I would suggest to any Scientologist who reads this that they listen to Tommy Davis’s rebuttal recordings. Not only is he in Dave’s valence but he actually manages to speak so many truths that completely back up Marty et al’s statements. For instance this quote…
“…David Miscavige is this mad man who roams around the base throws people in swimming pools, locks them in trailers, beats them unmercifully and that’s sort of the Scientology upper level”
http://www.tampabay.com/video/?bcpid…=2696034 3001 (quote starts at 00:37)
After which he goes on to try and defend Dave’s actions by listing all their recent MEST accomplishments.
Or this one…
http://www.tampabay.com/video/?bcpid=26806138001&bclid=26973363001&bctid=26960342001 (starts at 00:50)
Remember Tommy is talking to reporters here. Why would he lose it like that? Well I think every Scientologist knows the answer to that no?
For my own selfish reasons I hope Tommy carries on but I can’t imagine the turmoil going on in his head right now. For his own sake I hope he wakes up before it actually explodes.
From the church’s response to the latest SP Times article: ” That he purports to only speak of Mr. Miscavige is, of course, because Mr. Miscavige is the most famous name in Scientology and to defame him is to defame the character of the religion.”
Did I just read this right?!! Did he really say Miscavige is the most famous name in Scientology?
There are many of us who think Hubbard is the most famous name in Scientology!
This quote is what should be on the picket signs.
You owe her a system of criminal reform based not on punishment, but the restoration of self-respect. This was taken from a line DM had in his speech at the grand opening of the “Ideal Org” in Rome the other day. Unbelievable he should have thought about this when he beat his staff. God he is a complete traitor to man. Sadly he is using Rome for another stage.
Yes, it sounds like he repeated the same speech at the DC Ideal Org opening, as he used that line as well. There should be a vid posted of it soon.
Here is a link to the first part of DM’s speech in DC:
And the 2nd part:
I apologize in advance for the total “tech degrade”, admittedly it is of poor quality and difficult to hear at some points. The female speaker introducing DM is Sylvia Stannard.
Notice the loudness of the “crowd” at DM’s introduction. It was a canned crowd noise, fed into the area from the Golden Era sound board. At other points in his speech where there is random cheering, the decibel level is much noticeably lower. The evil transcriptionists are working up an evil transcription, but due to the poor quality it will take some time.
Also of note is that the podium that was used as part of the mock up was about 3 feet tall.
And lastly, a follow up walk by this morning shows a completely empty org, with staff in new uniforms but no public. That has got to be a morale killer….
Tom. A questions. These “new uniforms” ..what did they look like? Were they the vampire looking ones or something different. Just curious.
SherryMK,
Good question. They were not the vampire uniforms as shown in the magazine article. I have some pics I will post a little later, still going through them.
The gents wore black suits, with black vests and gold trim. Their ties were black, but the knot was gold. The laides did have what looked to be half capes, but no red lining was seen.
As mentioned above, here is a link to some pictures from the DC Ideal Org opening, including a shot of the staff uniforms:
http://img515.imageshack.us/g/31oct226.jpg/
I’ve noticed that church “PR” has been an attempt at using “flourish and prosper”, as an attempt to undermine FACTS that are being aired around the world on DM and the squirrel admin, tech and ethics. Everytime I read “the church is expanding more than ever” I apply various data on “how to defeat verbal tech” and “logic” to, with certainty, file it in the wastepaper basket, so to speak.
I don’t think DM and TD really get that flourish and prosper isn’t about publishing false stats to antagonise people you have hurt. Its about living, reaching and making life better all round.
They will inevitably be stained and poisoned by their own toxic manufactures.
dekrot,
You are so out of touch, wind yourself back to the early 80’s and stay there brother.
And tell Dennis Erlich to back off while you are at it, please.
Incidentally, someone just pointed out to me that there are a number of new video interview segments of me, wrongly labeled 21 June, on the new subjects at hand:
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/rathbun.shtml
Marty, I would suggest that you put this link on a main page in your blog — you
really give some great detail and information here, and it’s not clear that
these exist from the new article.
I just watched all the new videos on Tampabay. Marty I am very very glad you are here. The honesty and awareness you have and put into those pieces raised my hopes in things coming out ok.
I needed a pickup today, one of those days, and that was it. I hope you really duplicate that, thankyou.
C of S sent 3 affidavits to St. Pete’s Time.
Have those who have left the C of S written affidavits too?
Not to my knowledge. Declarations are for cowards who won’t subject themselves to follow up questions. They are for support of motions in litigation, not for answering serious questions from journalists.
Great job Marty!!
Thank You,
Alex
The Church of Scientology is expanding, is “exploding”, hum?
So, lets see…
How many clears?
How many class VIII’s on the last years?
Why those stats are not in PR?
Marty, you have cleared up a lot in the videos and the blog but the question I’ve always had about you, the reason why I had assumed that you were always trying to destroy scientology, is still unanswered. Don’t take this as an attack or anything. Know that I am an indie scientologist asking this with the best of intentions but I really don’t know how to ask this in a non-confrontational way. You can of course handle it though since you have handled so much already.
It appears that you knew that LRH wanted the Broekers in charge and that DM was not supposed to be in charge, yet you went against LRH’s wishes. You aided in an illegitimate takeover that has almost destroyed scientology. What I don’t understand is how a person with good intentions ends up doing that. Maybe DM tricked you somehow? Maybe you thought the Broekers were SPs that had tricked LRH? Maybe you thought LRH wasn’t that smart after all and that you knew better? Maybe you were promised money and weren’t all that into scientology at the time? If you had good intentions, there has to be some reason, some explanation. Are you willing to talk about this?
This requires a lot of context before anyone will fully understand. For now the short answer, Broker was mentally incapable of directing a two car funeral, and his financial practices posed a serious risk to tax exemption. If you read all my public interviews, blog postings and comments, you will understand why this is all you need to know in order to answer why I acted the way I did at that time under those circumstances. My job – first and foremost – was to make LRH’s estate planning work and that ALL depended upon obtaining tax exemption.
I have read and seen most of all that but your response really goes further to clear this up than anything I’ve seen yet so thanks for answering.
How did you view the mass exodus from the CoS in the early eighties and the lawsuit against Mayo? Did you kind of look at it the same way everyone else did in the CoS and think this was some massive SP infiltration and that everyone was a bunch of squirrels? I just wonder if you had a unique perspective on that since you were so close to DM.
And looking back now, do you think DM actually had good intentions in the beginning? Or has he always wanted to destroy scientology? He has to know the damage he is doing. It’s just too obvious at this point.
Not sure if you saw the article on Pat Broeker in the St Pete series. It’s kind of tucked away. The link is http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1048116.ece
Thanks, I saw the video that said all the same stuff yesterday. The info that is new to me is the claim that Pat Broeker is incompetent. I guess I just always assumed that since LRH picked him, he must have been pretty competent. LRH was just a man though and it’s entirely plausible Pat was pretty incompetent. I mean the fact that he accepted defeat so soon, so easily says something. Anyway, it’s good to know the other side of the story 🙂
Jeff, it will all add up when I am able to give the complete context. LRH was a human being. And he happened to be under quite a lot of pressure at the time.
Cool. Looking forward to it. No doubt he was under a lot of pressure – yikes!
Without the government’s harassment, I think the history of scientology would be far, far different. The government, just like the CoS, is also a monopoly – a monopoly on the initiation of aggression. Wherever there is a major problem in the world, there always seems to be an illegitimate monopoly involved (i.e. non-voluntary). Strange how consistent this is… You couldn’t blame someone for logically concluding that there is something inherently wrong with enforced, non-voluntary monopolies such as the CoS and the state in general regardless of how cool their uniforms look.
Heard an LRH lecture recently – from the fifties – where he emphatically stated that the only way Scientology could be lost is by Scientologists allowing it to be monopolized.
Jeff;
“We’re not playing some minor game in Scientology. It isn’t cute or something to do for lack of something better.
“The whole agonized future of this planet, every man, woman and child on it, and your own destiny for next endless trillions of years depends on what you do here and now with and in Scientology.
“This is a deadly serious activity. And if we miss getting out of the trap now, we may never again have another chance.”
Jeff – this is what we are doing here. We aren’t worried about why this or that didn’t happen or what Marty’s intentions are. We are trying to keep Scientology working. Get with it or move on.
Marty – Jeff is not honest; He’s trying to drive your anchor points in.
ain’t gonna happen, believe me.
Oh for God’s sake PS, Marty is a big boy, he can handle it.
I am “with it” just fine. I am moving along the bridge at a good pace outside the CoS at what is one of the best indie scientology training centers in the world.
I ask perfectly natural questions that any responsible Scientologist might ask. I would be worried if asking questions like these were discouraged (unless it’s just an attack or something). I know you aren’t supposed to ask questions in the CoS but out here in the independent field, we have open communication. It takes more confront but it’s a good thing, believe me.
As they say in the British Parliament, “Hear, Hear!”
Jeff, I thank you for asking these questions. And Marty, I thank you for answering them with understanding. So much is falling into place. You and everyone standing up have really delivered. The “deadly serious activity” stuff is just a harmonic on the MEST universe trap…we just got out of that.
Jeff is an extremely honest man. Have you read his blog?
Koos, you might have me mixed up with someone else (I don’t have a blog) but nonetheless, you are correct 🙂
PS – I congratulate you on your remarkable ability to see into someone’s heart and determine how honest he is, based on a few words. I don’t have your abilities and so prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and listen to what they say.
And please – enough of the “whole agonized future of this planet …” stuff. I had enough of that when I was in the CoS. If you believe that, fine but don’t try to ram it down our throats and use it to squash dissent. Besides, I think that Marty has proved himself perfectly capable of standing up for himself and being able to answer awkward questions.
Personally, I think that Jeff has asked some valid and pertinent questions. I would really like to know what went on behind the scenes when LRH ‘dropped the body’ and Miscavige ousted the Broekers to assume total control of the CoS.
PS,
I for one appreciate your reference to KSW. I think I understand your evaluation of importance too. On the other hand, the questions being asked by Jeff do need to be answered for purposes of cleaning up cut and perverted ARC lines, exactly as per An Essay on Management.
I don’t see that circumstances on earth are sufficiently cooled down to where we can let go of the intent and actions of KSW as nothing more than a ‘harmonic on the trap’, as has been suggested. The depth of aberration here calls for a discipline and KSW provides for it.
How does one play a ‘deadly serious activity’ at a tone level necessary to be not serious about it?
How much restraint of the bank is needed to get a tech result to where restraint is superfluous?
I think it is more accurate to say that rather than being a harmonic on a trap, which it certainly has been used as, that there are those who have attained a tone sufficient to see and be above an avid craving for group agreement, individuals without banks, who hopefully appreciate the disciplined actions of those that trained and audited them, those who followed KSW, that were maintained so such heights could be achieved.
Jeff’s questions are pertinent and answering them will go a long way to clearing the issues up so that it becomes clearer to more, just how far off the rails DM has taken Scientology. Just how DM has used KSW with a destructive intention, and so made it repugnant to even mention it.
If you read on in this thread you’ll see comments about how ‘Scientology’ has become a ser fac, for individuals and apparently for the group organism. When KSW becomes such a ser fac, all judgment and reason are forfeit, and one is no longer keeping Scientology working.
You’ll have to work out for yourself how to apply the ‘deadly serious activity’ datum, without becoming deadly serious about it. I’m sure it will take KSW to get to such a point of awareness.
I’m the same way with KSW. And I believe it is a reality based on looking at myself pre and post the case gain I’ve had. I don’t see any need to deny that this is a deadly serious activity, I was rescued from the brink of oblivion I believe.
LRH dealt with the paradox of, serious reality/must have spirit of play, quite well, and I don’t have huge trouble fitting both into my own equation in my own way. We don’t need to deny the seriousness in order to be not serious (a higher harmonic version of “not serious”). Thetans can operate within this paradox. If I’ve lost anyone, I can’t explain further, it’s just the best way I can put across for how I can have both.
Hi Jim, My point with the “harmonic” comment wasn’t about following a standard path. Discipline doesn’t have to be serious. On the other hand, if we are so “serious” that we can’t have different viewpoints, we’ll just get in trouble again. In Red Vol 1 p212 there’s a reference that says, “When life becomes serious, a man becomes less cause and greater effect. If life gets really serious, his value drops to practically zero.”
Good point Nomnom.
Well done Marty! Sadly, Cos goons are now flagging all our comments on the articles – resulting in them being removed. Do you have a contact there who can be alerted to this?
Yesterday a non-Scn friend who used to live in CW and now lives in Tampa called me to tell of the front page article in the SP Times — Chased by Their Church.
She was appalled but not so surprised as she’s been following the SPTimes investigatory reporting about CofS.
Although I was not “in” when I met her — I always defending the CofS to her as she thought it was a cult. She favorably told others good things about CofS — based on how I had explained things to her UNTIL about 2 years ago when I started to tell her my concerns with Miscavige.
So — here is someone who was willing to be supportive based on what I had said — and is now firmly back to the believe that the CofS is a cult.
AND it is — in it’s current incarnation.
Too bad more scientologists don’t now live in Tampa or elsewhere … I’m sure there is not a SPTimes paper to be had in Clearwater.
What do you think of the Weiland affidavit?
I don’t have it in front of me; but in general, it was meaningless. He said he was not privy to a lot of stuff Mike and I did throughout OSA, and that he had no idea what went on between Mike, Miscavige and I. Actually, if you read it carefully, it corroborates Mike and I.
These new articles are so damn interesting. Having been there all this time allbeit on a lower level, it’s all making sense.
The response from the CoS to the SP Times (you gotta love that name!) articles is rather interesting. Quite apart from the assertion that “Mr. Miscavige is the most famous name in Scientology and to defame him is to defame the character of the religion.” (Hmmm, I could have sworn that there was some other bloke who was more closely associated with Scientology – now what was his name …?)
I found it rather amusing that Davis asserts that “The HCO Policy Letter, ‘Blow Offs’, makes clear that anyone who leaves the Sea Org has overts and withholds.” and sends a copy of this HCOPL (also an HCOB) to the journalists writing the story. Does he really think that these non-Scientologists will be impressed by this? Besides, Davis apparently hasn’t read it properly as he would have seen this part from the same HCOPL: “And certainly one can treat people so badly that they have no choice but to leave.”
I should think that it must be patently obvious to anyone who has read the whole story that this is exactly what happened to Marty, Mike Rinder and everyone else who has been featured in the articles.
And why does Davis keep on uttering the same lies about disconnection? I personally have witnessed several cases where Scientologists were ordered to disconnect from friends or family because they were considered persona non grata.
So, Tommy Davis, perhaps this will refresh your memory:
From HCOPL 23 December 1965RB:
“Suppressive acts are defined as …
“Continued membership in a divergent group.” [i.e. you have to disconnect]
“Continued adherence to a person or group pronounced a suppressive person or group by HCO”. [i.e. you have to disconnect]
“Failure to handle or disavow and disconnect from a person demonstrably guilty of suppressive acts.” [i.e. if they won’t be handled, you have to disconnect]
As we all know, anyone found guilty of a suppressive act is likely to be thrown out of the CoS. So, we can clearly see that according to official CoS policy, if you fail to disconnect when required to do so, you can no longer be a member of the CoS.
Lastly, I notice that Davis has agreed to be available for interview “during the week of November 9–13.”
This should give Joe Childs and Tom Tobin plenty of time to get fully briefed on what questions to ask and what documents to wave in Davis’s face to show that he is lying. Now all we need, is someone who is very knowledgeable about Scientology and the Tech who can give them such a briefing. 😉
Marty’s reply to Jeff held a KEY component and a VERY forgotten component, IMHO.
“LRH was a human being”
LRH never claimed to be anything but a human being and told us over and over, that we TOO could wear bigger boats, and that someday the accolades at the birthday parties would be for us etc etc
And yet, myself included FOR SURE, I felt that LRH was (a) god … could make no mistakes, was omniscient etc etc and bit by bit I lost my own ability to make decisions. ALWAYS putting the power outside of myself.
ANYWAY — thank you (again) Marty — for pointing out, LRH was a human being.
I don’t think I’ve EVER see anyone (except LRH) say this.
WH
WH, you’ve hit upon something critical. LRH himself has commented on the danger of vesting “faith” in “higher beings”, the simple technical fact of what it does to an individual to transfer causation, or responsibility, from oneself to another’s doorstep. And of course those who have experienced miracles in Scn tend to develop a reverence for the guy who made it possible. When it cross the border into some sort of “blind faith” it not only defeats the entire objective of the subject, it justifies the most cruel conduct. What I find frightening is that so many followers now have fell for the DM is source trip and consequently day in and day out perform the most fantastic wrongnesses and injustices in the name of Scn. They have become what LRH warns against becoming. They have become sort of anti-Scientologists, unshakeable in the belief they are real Scientologists.
Weiland indicates in that affidavit that DM follows LRH’s policies… Do you agree with that?
Please.
Seems like Tommy’s rebuttals are the same, recycled pejoratives over and over again. ‘Repeated something enough times and to enough people and it become the truth,’ is that the idea? Am certain that the readers of not only the Sunday ‘St. Pete Times’, but as well most of the engaged and interested world following this story by way of the ether can see through the veil.
Just don’t know how much longer the rope-a-dope strategy cofs seems to employing — one big defensive ‘when is this gonna end?’ grind — can go on before it backfires or just plain doesn’t work. Like it is currently — not working. What with Mr. Davis going so far as to sling insults at journalism, itself, with his “old tabloid trick” statement. It’s not as thought the ‘National Inquirer’ is running these articles along side the latest “Two-Headed Guernsey Found in Iowa” piece.
Wouldn’t they be better served to even casually chuck in the idea that perhaps, just maybe, some may have been harmed over the years and that investigations are imminent with a likely ‘truth and reconciliation’ forthcoming? Heck, if they’re going to lie about stuff when speaking to CNN, why not lie about imminent investigations and bringing people back into the tent, too?
Lastly, Claire Headley’s thirty-story building metaphor is most compelling and honest.
On another topic, I wanted to inquire about LRH’s last Will and Testament. I have come across it on the internet (or some version of it). I think, but I am not sure, that I read that the Will might have been tampered with by DM or other church officials, leaving little of LRH’s vast wealth to his immediate family. I read that his son even filed something in a court about this but there was no time reference.
Not so – LRH never had the intention of leaving “vast wealth” to his immediate family. He reasonably provided for it, but not intend to greatly enrich them.
Jeff,
Knowing you’re here (I hope Marty doesn’t mind) : How do you feel about reading about the amount of money DM spent to contain the Gillham sisters (obviously money completely blown out the window) and to shut up Bob Minton which was about the same time the funding to your succesful campaigns were cut off. Where do you see COS would be at, had e.g John Woodruff of the OC Org won the battle to control international Scientology back in the late 80’s?
I’ve never heard of John Woodruff’s battle to control Scientology. I always
had tremendous respect for that guy. What happened? Can you tell us
more about it?
Just a tad of Scientology history and lore … missed by the SP Times, or not exploited by Mark Fisher:
The Gillham sisters, Janis and Terri, could be considered exiled scientology “royalty”. Peter and Yvonne Gillham were the parents. Yvone founded Celebrity Center, receiving massive aclaim for her work on “project Celebrity”. After her death, she still had an office at CC Int. Yvonne, after divording Peter, married Heber Jensch.
Janis and Terri are Hebers step children, and are the subject of a disconnection order from him.
Peter in the 60’s and 70’s wrote many books based on the tech approved by the church and hubbard, he may have been one of the best disseminators in Scientology history.
Janis was the first messenger, there were of course 4 that helped LRH initially.
Just to clear up any confusion, the person posting here as “Jeff” is not me. I always post here and elsewhere as “Fishdaddy.”
Jeff Hawkins
fishdaddy I know who you are and if I haven’t told you before I love reading your posts 🙂
Marty,
If you have evidence of crimes – especially financial given the fact that we’ve all emptied our wallets – then provide it to the journalists to put to DM so we can get data on this line.
Also, to your knowledge, is DM the only terminal in the upper strata of INT who’s never been to the RPF? I say this because I have unconfirmed data that Russ Belin, Dave Bloomberg, Greg Hughes, Liz Inger, Michelle and Marc Yager, Heber, Guillame, Kathy Lemmer, Rinder, Mithoff, Lyman, Weiland and Sue Wilhere were all in the hole at the same time in 07. This seems insane to me.
As for LRH, Wilhere tells the story of being in complete overwhelm while trying to keep up with LRH running 15 cycles at once. Finally, the Old Man stops and says, “You think I’m God, don’t you?” LRH laughs and says, “I’m not God, but I’m damned OT”.
It’s through this lens which I view LRH. Yes, he could be maddeningly cantankerous and fly off the handle but the man was also as theta as could be; kind and very generous and I’m damned if I’m going to allow his name or, more to the point, his Tech to be besmirched.
I have no direct knowledge of his final years other than he was being bombarded with lawsuits and entheta and the inherent paranoia in that scene was exacerbated by the fact that his comm lines may not have been clean. So who knows what he was being told and what was being kept from him.
I’m also suspicious of the purges. For one, Pierre Ethier was maybe the best auditor on the planet when he was at Flag and somehow he ends up getting routed out and is now hanging his own shingle.
There are many unanswered questions.
As far as I know, Sherman Lenske still practices law in LA; what does he have to say? Terri and Janis choose to say nothing. Why?
Your assessment of Pat Broeker is probably on the money but still, what does he have to say?
We need more data.
Well that just sums it up right there.
Got this quote today. Thought it fits.
“It’s perfectly all right to be nice to people. It isn’t a weakness at all; nothing weak about being nice. In matter of fact, if you aren’t, you’re in the soup.
“You could say that the only times for which you were suffering are those times when you weren’t nice enough. When you weren’t kind enough and when you weren’t unmean enough and those are the only times from which you’re really suffering. …
“The only thing you should ever be tough about is insist that the other fellow ought to stand on his own feet, too. And the only way you’ll ever communicate that to him is to communicate it to him in a very nice way. Then he’s liable to receive it.”
— L. Ron Hubbard
Marty-I want to apologize for being too cynical of you and not biding my time. Thanks for all you are doing in addition to the others out there. I feel that the CO$ has taken years of life from many of us for the sake of very few and love seeing justice being served. Keep up the good work and thanks again. I remember vividly when I realized it was all a sham and decided to google Scientology. That’s when I started my road to total freedom and now I’m saved.
I was an OT VII when I left the cult.scientology was and is and has always been led by criminals. Brainwashing is used on all who get involved, not just the Sea Org. Marty has always been involved in these criminal activities and now, you all leave DM to worship Marty? Scary, very scary. There are no past or future lives people. This is it. Wake up and enjoy life now.
:Yeah, its fright night, ain’t it?
Thanks Mike.
Enjoy life.
Do well.
I don´t worship anybody.
I have also the goal of enjoy life and other goals too.
Help fellow man for example.
Roberto Sánchez
Marty,
I think I have finally caught up on all your posts now and may I please apologize for my initial outburst. It had been a long time since I even thought about scientology and I suddenly got sucked back into prior incidents.
You have a lot going on and I don’t want to distract from your efforts but I do have one question if I may.
It seems to me that ultimately the one thing that needs to happen here is the removal of DM from his current position. Would you agree with that and if so what do you suppose would be the most effective way of doing this?
Please email me if you feel like answering and not posting. I ask because I am considering “coming out” as it were but I will only do this if it will significantly help with what I feel is the big issue here, i.e. getting rid of DM.
It seems to me that a personal lawsuit of some sort against DM could result in his being convicted but is this actually possible in your opinion?
Or do you in fact think it is better for him to continue as he is?
I understand if you don’t wish to answer this and in any event I would like to simply say thank you for what your are doing. It is extraordinary and I am very grateful.
Dear glinner:
I know this communication wasn´t directed to me.
Just a comment…
The show is not over with someone going down or up.
Maybe you remember there is a duty to erradicate the wrongful applications. This is a lifetime activity.
About “coming out” might I suggest you to re-read the code of honour and decide not in exchange of a external result but a own.
Please, please; don´t take this as an attack.
I respect your question and; again forgive me for introducing an opinion.
Do very well.
Roberto Sánchez
I figure its time for me to say something that sounds batshit crazy, but as far as I can work it out, and its only verified by “what” is happening, not really “how” or “why”. “What” as was used in finding the dynamic principle of existence. What is happening? OT’s and scientologists are at war, players of comparable magnitude make a good game. The mark of criminals is mysteries (“where is that gold necklace”, answer, stolen etc). Scientologists have the same goal, we have different targets 1)Scntlgsts in the church are following LRH (albeit at the will of a madman DM) 2)Scntlgsts in the field are following LRH, trying to stop DM. The scntlgsts working for DM don’t know their enemy is composed of good people, falsely declared and trying to help.
12 men run the banks, reserve banks, shadow govts, IRS, Church of spiritual technology.
If, in the final analysis, the end-game is for these 12 men to divide and conquer scientologists and then run Black Dianetics on everyone, everywhere, even other galaxies etc, I figure we need to find out as much as possible right now.
That was a summation of what I have seen. I cannot verify it. But it has given me a very strong purpose to find out exactly what the hell is going on. And the best attitude I can get on it is to continue on a path of helping.
Not focus on being an “enemy” but focus on helping and doing what helps. Focusing on destruction inevitably recoils without having a further, higher goal, of eventually helping.
Quotes from Ron from
HCOB O-W a limited Theory. 22 Dec 1960
“O-W can occur only when help has failed. Help is a co-joining of vectors of life.
When two beings who have joined forces to help fail each other, only then does O-W
come into existence.
The forces of two beings cannot come into dispute until after they have first
joined. Thus there is no war like that seen between brothers or husband and wife.”
HCOB Assessment of Help,7 JULY 1960.
“The action of help is not aberrative. The failure to help is what does it, or the lack of
things to help.”
Those are my thoughts at this time. I (really) hope they help.
Any thoughts on it?
Agreed on this:
That was a summation of what I have seen. I cannot verify it. But it has given me a very strong purpose to find out exactly what the hell is going on. And the best attitude I can get on it is to continue on a path of helping.
Not focus on being an “enemy” but focus on helping and doing what helps. Focusing on destruction inevitably recoils without having a further, higher goal, of eventually helping.
My thought on this Martin is that this analisis you make is very good.
It certainly helped me.
Not focus on “enemy” but in “help”
Fully, totally agree.
Roberto Sánchez
Jim Logan;
Thanks Jim. I really appreciate your comm. My whole point is this: I spent the majority of my life working to clear this planet, as you and a lot of others on this blog have. Until this blog, I was slowly dying from a rather large ARCX that my work was all for naught. I have a product list that is quite extensive and I was proud of it. But it seemed it was for nothing.
Now we have a glimmering of a light to get Scientology back on the rails again, thanks to Marty. I get frustrated when I see someone ask banal questions that are more pointed than for historical or future importance. More for savoring Orville Reddenbakkers popcorn. That’s all.
Jeff can come up with something useful or contrubute without shoving someones anchor points in is all I am saying. And trust me – I know when someone is shoving in anchor points on purpose.
It is not just Jeff, it is the rest of the natter and BS that goes on at this site. Some of it really bends my brain.
But hey, this is a free site and anyone can say what they want, including me.
PS,
First, your work and valid production is valid and has moved this whole thing forward. It all counts man. Every bit.
Second, I recommended An Essay on Management for a context of the comm on this site. That is still valid too. Check out the early issues on Group Dianetics as well. Open lines, with truth, and high Reality. You’re participating so that’s a suggested ‘hatting’ action with those issues.
Last, if your brain is getting bent, I suggest you take it out of the line as a via. It is a principle that the degree of simplicity is directly proportional to the degree of confront. TRO mate, even with Bullbait.
Wow. I just watched the added series. This is amazing stuff. Marty, you are a wrecking ball.
The big question I have is this: are these disclosures about your own catharsis, or are they about saving Scientology, or are they about taking down Miscavige?
It is all on this blog and in the original videos from the 21 June Series at Tampabay.com. In short, yes, yes, and if on the third leg you replace “taking down” with “de-fanging”, yes.
Speaking of de-fanging, there’s a book written by a psychiatrist you might want to check out. It’s called Snakes in Suits: When psychopaths go to work by Dr. Robert Hare.
http://www.snakesinsuits.com/
Here’s an excerpt:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13150054/
Dr. Hare has studied psychopaths extensively in prisons among other places, and his take is surprisingly like Hubbard’s: They aren’t likely to change much, so the best course is to identify them and limit their ability to do harm.
Martin;
That was batshit crazy, but it was brilliant!! This is exactly the kind of thing we need in this forum: How to solve the delimma, because I am afraid Martin might be right in that the 12 men are guiding both sides into oblivion. I mean, what if this were true?
In the Rollback issue from LRH, he says, and in CAPS: “THINGS GOOD OR BAD DON’T JUST HAPPEN, THEY ARE MADE TO HAPPEN, AND ONCE WE BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THAT, WE CAN START SOLVING SOME OF THESE SITUATIONS.”
This was in reference to the CIA and FBI infiltrating the USGO and GOWW in 1982, but it applies now.
Marty, what if he is right? What if David has all the help in the world and we are underestimating the correct estimation of effort? Afterall, he’s a madman and he has the keys to the future of mankind. He might as well have the codes to all of the nukes.
We keep on going right where we are going. We create communities of real Scientologists. If your conspiracy theories are right, it took fifty years to accomplish their goals. Gives us fifty years to get it right. But, I don’t care who said it – to hang the GO’s crimes on the CIA and FBI is just plain wrong. I studied every FOIA document – thousands – ever obtained from USG files, and all non-FOIA (the ones the GO lifted for years) – thousands, and you are just barking up the wrong tree to go down that road. To say perhaps there was some justification to fight fire with fire is quite another thing. And to say it helped seed the creation of the perfect, paranoid cold war-era organization wouldn’t be too inaccurate either. You all start worrying about “mine shaft gaps” (ref: final scene in Dr Strangelove) then you are poised to create the same oppressive monster Miscavige created.
You’re right Marty. If I was still with the organization I would have liked to see a B of I or a postmortem of what really happened with the GO, but out here it really doesn’t matter.
I mean we have the tech and policy, so even if CIA or whatever cryptic dark force has seized control of the organization. The point is it really doesn’t affect us out here.
Ron talks about this in the HCO BULLETIN OF 29 JULY 1963
Central Orgs
Franchise
SCIENTOLOGY REVIEW
(begin fair use)
We bought an awful lot of time with the discovery of the exact nature of between
lives implants and how it’s worked. Using this data it is possible to keep any Scientologist
from ever getting another one of those implants. As the general course of living is
therapeutic, it takes violent implants such as Earth people get at every death to keep
people unaware of former lives and aberrated. Just by omitting those implants and using
their reporting technology to keep in touch amongst ourselves, we would salvage the lot
in a few hundred years in any event. Our data is too widely disseminated to be recollected
and burned.
(end fair use)
Thankyou PS.
Thankyou Roberto, I am glad I posted it.
And I agree with what you have said Marty, there is no clear data in my mind on who or why things are happening or have happened.
I believe in the products of scientology, and that requires third dynamics. The basic unit is 2.
At the moment we have a monumental spear head in people getting in comm. My evaluation is the successful action has been communication, integrity and a community that encourages “auditor trust”.
I am studying everyday, studying auditing.
Auditing solves everything in my estimation, we ARE creating islands of friendliness and succor.
Aside from DM’s influence there are people onlines trying to get things done, get auditing done, in a way we are working together to release theta back into the world, maybe one day they will thank us.
I believe the mystery will unravel more as a by-product of helping each other than as a goal unto itself… And I can’t wait to find out what’s going on 😉
Marty,
Who is Norton S. Karno? How deeply was he involved in the GO — he was obviously involved much later, with things like Digital Lightwave, but was he a CoS business partner or member? Why was he removed as executor to LRH’s will? Generally interested in the guy. I spoke to him on the phone once and he seemed (pretended?) to be surprised that he was mentioned in “Bare Faced Messiah”.
Wow, amazing.
Did they stop promotional campaign now?
LRH: “…we found out that 3rd Dynamic was an agreement. But in agreeing let’s not die the death, let’s not as-is every individual presence simply because we have agreed that there is an organization. Let’s not create an all-devouring Alice-in-Wonderland monster. … recognize that the 3rd Dynamic, how desirable and actual it may be, in the upper realms of existence, at this level of existence is composed entirely of first dynamics cooperating. Therefore it isn’t possible for the organization to carry a ball independent of an individual. … the organization can never help him out. … Organizations do not bleed, they do not breathe; they do behave oddly enough like a single organism. … But when the individuals in it cease to behave as individuals, cease to have their own thoughts, cease to be capable of their own initiative, cease to be able to take their own action, then the whole organization boils down to just one man, and he’s the only one who could make a decision … the only one who could act. … it is composed of individuals who observe and who look … The only thing I am trying to teach you is to look.”
It’s from 15 July 1957 Scientology and Effective Knowledge – PRO TRs Course Lecture
When I was in the Church of Scientology, I sometimes asked why a HCO PL or a FO wasn’t being applied only to be given the same recurring justification: COPE.
It is no wonder why the church is in a condition of Emergency or lower. Instead of thinking long-term (as in decades), the church operates in the ridiculously immediate now.
For example, on my 1992 EPF, at least half of the people joining the Sea Org were right off the street, brand-new “Scientologists.” I was considered an old-timer because I had been briefly on staff before joining the Sea Org! When I asked about the qualifications of the new Sea Org recruits, I was told: COPE.
Marty,
In your opinion what is it going to really take as far as estimation of effort is concerned to “get rid” of DM? I know for sure that getting Scientologists to know the truth and see it for themselves is one but suing him seems like the only way to go. It doesn’t look like his is going to give it up. Is it true that he now legally owes the Church?
Aside from all the “education”, “nomenclature” and “indoctrination”, I was exposed to in the 1980’s as a curious student and eventual staff member, I could not brush away this GUT feeling that seemed more eloquent than all what I’ve been taught to believe. My gut was telling me, “Hey, Scientology’s paranoia is league not to mention that of the Founder,” and as we can see now as a consequence, that certain paranoia became self-fulfilling and is making a huge mess! Almost everyone outside and within are in their perception suspected as being suppressive and that list grows each day! Myself included, I am on that blacklist. Scientology management suffers from the “we/they” myth of a separate and fragmented humanity and seems to take on the appearance of a political arena than a “religious” one. Back in 1985, I walked away thinking I’ll have none of that crazy business!
Nature and spirit simply abhor separation as in “WE ARE ONE”. Separation is stuff of schizophrenia and fear. We’re evolving, man! It will come to pass. We can be grateful for our lessons in history. Sobering.